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Old Feb 11, 2008, 9:07pm   #1
joeyjoejoejr
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Default Leveling in Omaha

You raise preflop 100BB deep and a good player that seems to understand the game calls from the blinds

The flop comes K 7 2 rainbow (or some other very dry board)

He checks and you bet pot or near pot

He raises pot or near pot

How often would you push with the following hands?

AAxx
Top pair with good "kickers" say KQJ10, or AKQ10
Top two pair say A876 (a hand that really doesnt have much equity if villian actually has what he is repping)
Pretty much air maybe a backdoor wrap say 9876

How often would you float with any of those hands with or without a backdoor nut flush draw? You would then look to take it down on the turn if he checks or maybe go with it if he pushes the turn and you picked top two or a strong draw

Against a bad player this is of course an easy snap fold on the flop but a good player will know that I pretty much can never stand a raise here. I myself have been bluff raising these flops a good amount of time with success
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 4:38am   #2
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// I'm not an omaha player so this might be totally wrong..

I think if you 3bet bluff it's not important if can beat a K or not, rather it's important to have a lot of equity vs a calling a range. Now maxing that equity works with back door flushes and possible "overpairs" for oversets. So I guess AA88ss with 2 backdoor flush possibilities figures to do fairly good vs 77xx.

Now if you start to go more advanced, having/beating the K might actually matter, as he might call your 3bet with KQJ9 or so.

But I think 3bet bluffing flops in omaha is just uneccessary most of the time. I mean K72o might be the time for it, but only under very rare circumstances. And those super dry flops don't come by very often, bare a decent player who c/r bluffs and expects to get 3bet rebluffed.
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 4:49am   #3
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Ok I think I get what you're saying now. Just no 22 in his range and almost no 77. So it's basically KK or air. 2 pair are also very unlikely. That changes hand value dramatically. Now I guess your kicker matters and AAxx is the nuts.

Bah relative hand value in omaha.. absurd.
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 11:11pm   #4
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Are we thinking 77xx isn't in his range here? A solid Omaha player will still see the flop with like 9877 or 8776 etc.

I really don't know what to say about these kind of spots. I find in cap games I want to push back with the AAxx, esp. if i have redraws as BB said. That is so because I find people overplaying TP decent kickers (AKQx and the like) in cap games. But if this is a regular 100 BB deep game, I am honestly not sure what to do.

I would not be re-pushing air here. People tend to get very married to their omaha hands - I see people with like QT96 (or less even!) put in a single raise preflop and then just because they think they're 'invested' they will put their entire stack in preflop with that speculative hand. And I've seen people with nothing but K9xx in almost this very spot stack off against me (and suck out, of course). Here, you're not getting very much fold equity except against a bluff - K7xx will often call you, let alone 77xx; the situation would be different if it weren't HU and he hadn't already invested 20-30 BBs or whatever it works out as. Good regs don't like to stack off with a low set or 2pr all that often, but when they've already invested themselves its different even for good players.

As for how often this is a bluff, that's a tough question and I admit I don't have an answer. The biggest problem is that this board looks so dry that the c/r can't be a semibluff, but at the same time, he's going to know that and might be using that as a means to bluff you. Most of the time if a non-LAG reg c/r's here and I have a naked AAxx no draws whatsoever, I will be folding. I would have difficulty folding K7xx depending on the xx, because if my other cards are decent, they give backdoor draws and potentially live second pairs.

I think what is most important is deciding what kind of 'decent reg' we're talking about here. A lot of decent TAG type players may know they might be able to push you off here, but they won't do it because the risk is high when you have a monster or you are stubborn. Then again, there are also decent regs who will try to push you around for the reasons you've stated. So if all we know about the other player is they're decent and play regularly, that's not much help - are they more LAG or TAG? How often do you see them making moves? These are essential to deciding how often you will play back on them here. W/o this information I would default to fold since I can't imagine the pot is worth risking my entire stack when I am very often up against a monster.
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Old Feb 16, 2008, 12:18am   #5
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I probably overthink things, a fold is probably best against players I encounter at 2/4. Simply because decent players at my levels don't think at the raise bluff level these flops that often. They make money by playing tight and looking for nuts or near nuts and super strong draws.

But if your in BB here my advice is to recognize that this is a perfect spot to raise bluff. I know that I have very profitably bluffed contiuation bets on ace and king high rag boards.

If your playing me or another player that seems to make a lot moves or your playing 25/50. I think you should 3bet all in here on the K high rag board with AAxx or AKQ10 and anything with backdoor wraps. Id have air in BB way more often then KK/77

We could have a similar discussion on when to stack off with AA on paired boards. These of course are the other great spot to raise bluff on. I do think though that at 2/4 at least most decent players do realize this and will go with aces a good amout of time. Because of this I have stopped raise bluffing on 22x,33x,44x and 55x boards. But I will often raise bluff on 77-QQ boards simply because you get more credit and I actually have the trips more often.

Last edited by joeyjoejoejr; Feb 16, 2008 at 12:31am.
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 6:45am   #6
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POKERSTARS GAME #16353437716: OMAHA POT LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/03/30 - 01:37:55 (ET)
Table 'Miriam II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: romy99 ($200.95 in chips)
Seat 2: UngeEnga ($232.35 in chips)
Seat 3: joeyjoejr ($708.70 in chips)
Seat 4: r0bi25 ($139 in chips)
Seat 5: bird99999 ($369.50 in chips)
Seat 6: HTB19651965 ($206.35 in chips)
HTB19651965: posts small blind $1
romy99: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to joeyjoejr [5c 8h Ah As]
UngeEnga said, "awesome"
UngeEnga: calls $2
joeyjoejr: raises $7 to $9
r0bi25: folds
bird99999: folds
HTB19651965: folds
romy99: calls $7
UngeEnga: calls $7
*** FLOP *** [2h Jc 6s]
romy99: checks
UngeEnga: bets $26.60
joeyjoejr: raises $79.80 to $106.40
romy99: folds
UngeEnga: raises $116.95 to $223.35 and is all-in
joeyjoejr: calls $116.95
*** TURN *** [2h Jc 6s] [9c]
*** RIVER *** [2h Jc 6s 9c] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UngeEnga: shows [Kd Kh 8d 3s] (a pair of Kings)
joeyjoejr: shows [5c 8h Ah As] (a pair of Aces)
joeyjoejr collected $471.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $474.70 | Rake $3
Board [2h Jc 6s 9c 4h]
Seat 1: romy99 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: UngeEnga showed [Kd Kh 8d 3s] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: joeyjoejr showed [5c 8h Ah As] and won ($471.70) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: r0bi25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: bird99999 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: HTB19651965 (small blind) folded before Flop
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