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Old Feb 24, 2008, 11:50am   #11
AceSweaty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poke her blind ante View Post
What are you hoping to acheive in each of the following scenario's?

1 - He's bet pot on flop you raise with air

2 - He's bet pot on flop you raise with the AA

1) With air, not sure I would at 25NL becuase there's less fold equity, it's a horrible board to drive out any cont bet and a reasonable chance this guy will call with MP/TP (helps we know with hindsight that he gets tilty).

2) With AA I'd definitely bet the flop. It's such a vulnerable hand here especially with the 2 diamonds on the board. It's not a monster that will face many calls by hands that don't have it beat on later streets especially if bum cards are dealt to the river. By raising the flop we might be able to take it there and then from the the idiot end SD and any smaller overpairs we extract even more from, possibly getting them all in on the flop. The flop bet also makes them less inclined to bluff when a scare card hits the turn.
By calling the flop I think we're giving him nice implied odds on a very drawy board. I'd like to be comitted on the turn and have him know that when a safe card hits 71% of the time. Even with position I just don't know what I'd do in this situation if the diamond or straight card fell and he bet 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot.
If it was a set we were holding here I think that the flop call and turn shove could definitely be a justifiable move. But this board is sccaaaary.
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 1:05pm   #12
Poke her blind ante
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceSweaty View Post
1) With air, not sure I would at 25NL becuase there's less fold equity, it's a horrible board to drive out any cont bet and a reasonable chance this guy will call with MP/TP (helps we know with hindsight that he gets tilty).

2) With AA I'd definitely bet the flop. It's such a vulnerable hand here especially with the 2 diamonds on the board. It's not a monster that will face many calls by hands that don't have it beat on later streets especially if bum cards are dealt to the river. By raising the flop we might be able to take it there and then from the the idiot end SD and any smaller overpairs we extract even more from, possibly getting them all in on the flop. The flop bet also makes them less inclined to bluff when a scare card hits the turn.
By calling the flop I think we're giving him nice implied odds on a very drawy board. I'd like to be comitted on the turn and have him know that when a safe card hits 71% of the time. Even with position I just don't know what I'd do in this situation if the diamond or straight card fell and he bet 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot.
If it was a set we were holding here I think that the flop call and turn shove could definitely be a justifiable move. But this board is sccaaaary.
I agree raising with air here is suicidal, I also agree you need to either bet, call or raise the flop. The point I was making was even though the board is scary it's just as scary for him and he's the one OOP. He's fired a pot size bet which can mean a lot of things and working out which action has the highest EV is the key here and auto-raising the flop just because there's a run of 3 isn't neccessarily the correct move all the time.

The reason I posed that question to Eric was because he's not thinking about what he's doing tbh. Saying you're blindly reacting with a raise here whether you have a hand or not is silly as with air you want the fold and with a winning hand you want a call. You can't burn the candle at both ends.
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 2:19pm   #13
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Bad players at $25nl love to donk out on a flop that looks like it missed the pre-flop raiser. If you are going to give up just because your big ace whiffed on a 456 flop then you're making a mistake. Since calling is just gross you need to raise.

Raising air here is far from suicidal... when they're sitting there with QTo or some other retarded hand they are not interested in calling a raise with at best 6 outs (in their mind).

As for what I hope happens with AA vs air... well in both cases I usually believe I'm raising with the better hand, so I don't mind being called with either one. If I get re-raised it sucks whether I'm holding AA or air... The difference is I'm always folding air to a re-raise, and probably not aces (depending on stuff).

edit... I'm curious what you would do here with a strong ace/no draw. Are you seriously going to always fold AQs just because some drooler leads out on a low flop?

Last edited by eric melvin rules; Feb 24, 2008 at 2:25pm.
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 3:09pm   #14
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I just didn't like to raise at that spot... If he calls or raises I am already comitted and small pps and scs are in his range. So I was really afraid when that flop hit and he lead out for the Pot... I wanted to reevaluate on the turn since I am in position!
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 4:44pm   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loder89 View Post
I just didn't like to raise at that spot... If he calls or raises I am already comitted and small pps and scs are in his range. So I was really afraid when that flop hit and he lead out for the Pot... I wanted to reevaluate on the turn since I am in position!
I'd argue this is a fair point about waiting for the turn, but this is a particularly scary board and chances are you're ahead but either by miles (to another overpair or poop) or he's drawing so why not jam the pot and make him pay to draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loder89 View Post
If he calls or raises I am already comitted and small pps and scs are in his range. So I was really afraid when that flop hit and he lead out for the Pot...
Again this is a fair point but low pockets are hands are in your opponents range on near enough every flop - flops with only one face card. I think you've just got to accept the statistical unlikelihood here and get your money in.



I think the flop re-raise is the most profitable play here at 25NL for another reason - the decision you force upon him. If he's a first level thinker, what can he put YOU on?
If he's flopped a set c'est la vie, you were always going to lose money.
If he's got TP or an overpair he's got a tough decision on his hands and will probably still decide to get his money in given that a draw is a possible holding for you.
If he's the type that Eric has described that will cont bet any flop with hands like KQ, KJ, QT etc, he'll fold or make the mistake of calling when you're pretty much comitted and big favourite. This isn't bad! Yes you're in on the turn when the scare card hits (29% of the time).
If he's made that call with the marginal face card hands a double up is yours for the taking if he pairs one of his face cards.

But by calling yes you have position but you're none the wiser as to what he has and you're hoping a nice card hits the turn. IWith the flop call if a scare card hits and he bets you're left with a tough decision and probably a fold which has cost you $. If a blank hits and he checks, chances are you'll take the pot down anyway so why not make him pay on the flop, commit him there and then to stacking off if he hits TP on the turn and save yourself a potentially tough decision and most likely take down a bigger pot with the raise?

I know Negreanu and others have argued against this need for flop info recently but is this not a particularly bad flop and with a hand which is particularly susceptible to losing at showdown (with just two outs)?

To conc: I reckon with the AA raising the flop is the most + EV. You're taking a bigger pot than a smaller pot more often. (71% of the time you're a huuuge fav on the turn - the % chance he flops a set or two pair).

Last edited by AceSweaty; Feb 24, 2008 at 4:47pm.
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 6:54pm   #16
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I think all those hand were played very well. In the first hand, I would raise the flop vs a donk but just call vs a good player. Because the board is just too wet. I would basically wait for the turn to raise, if no flush/str8 card hits.
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 7:27pm   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
Bad players at $25nl love to donk out on a flop that looks like it missed the pre-flop raiser. If you are going to give up just because your big ace whiffed on a 456 flop then you're making a mistake. Since calling is just gross you need to raise. <--- In the same light a good player will bet aggressively at a pot if it's known the pre-flop raiser can be pushed off the hand and calling isn't gross.

Raising air here is far from suicidal... when they're sitting there with QTo or some other retarded hand they are not interested in calling a raise with at best 6 outs (in their mind). <--- He's called the PF raise then bet the pot so he's not going anywhere if you raise. If you have air you fold which was what answer you should have given to my original question "what are you wanting to acheive by raising with air"

As for what I hope happens with AA vs air... well in both cases I usually believe i'm raising with the better hand <--- WTF?? Let me get this straight, you think the villains entire range here is behind a bluff?

so I don't mind being called with either one. <--- Now your advice is getting really bad

If I get re-raised it sucks whether I'm holding AA or air... The difference is I'm always folding air to a re-raise, and probably not aces (depending on stuff).

edit... I'm curious what you would do here with a strong ace/no draw. <--- Most of the time i'll fold the Ace high since I have a max of 6 outs unless i'm agaisnt a bluff which isn't enough to warrant calling or raising with no pair/no draw Are you seriously going to always fold AQs just because some drooler leads out on a low flop? <--- You dont know he's a drooler yet and more than often yes I am going to fold ace high to a pot sized c-bet
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Old Feb 25, 2008, 3:03am   #18
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At $25nl it is a safe bet that every opponent is terrible until they show you otherwise.

I never said his entire range is air, but we are ahead of his range with A-high...

Good players rarely take this line with a good hand. Bad players rarely take this line with a good hand. Bad players often take this line with air.

Your red text is really hard to read. Your condescending tone is annoying as fuck. HU4ROLLZ?
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Old Feb 25, 2008, 12:32pm   #19
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This post is for the beginner players on the forum. You'll do best to ignore this guys advice.
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Old Feb 25, 2008, 1:20pm   #20
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Just keep on playing weak tight and giving up every time you miss a flop. Really strong poker there. You're a joke.

I've played enough hands to know $25nl, and know the players at that level... Almost nobody ever donks out a PSB with a strong hand on this flop. Calling is retarded because we have to fold on way too many turn cards when they 2-barrel. If they know you weren't helped by a 654 flop and the turn is a 7 do you think they're going to be like "zomg scary card, he must have 89!!!!"

Still love to play you any time... I can show you just how terrible I am at poker.
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