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Old Mar 10, 2008, 4:10pm   #1
Mr Beaks
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Default Moving AI PF with AK

The generally accepted play when facing a 3-bet preflop with AK is to move all-in. Previously in my game I was being quite random about it and varying play between 4-betting, calling and shoving depending on position etc.

Recently I've taken to coming over the top and going AI and I have to say it's been nothing short of disastrous. Time and time again I'm getting shown AA or KK and taking much the worst of it. I'll grind a session to be up a couple of buyins and then a few hands later I'm back where I started because I got whacked on a couple of AK shoves.

So I guess the question is whether this is a sound practice in the micros (25nl & 50nl) or whether it's best reserved for higher levels. In my experience only the real LAGs will significantly 3-bet anything but AA, KK, QQ or AK at lower limits so I'm not looking great against the calling range. Am I applying the rule too literally and is there a case for calling or 4-betting with full stacks preflop?

Would be useful to hear from micro players and also higher limit players on this one. 2 things would be good to hear:

1. What's your "standard play" without reads when facing a 3-bet preflop with AK? Assume that you raised and your action is now HU

2. When you shove with AK and you get called by a villain with a full stack what's his calling range based on showdown experience?
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 4:37pm   #2
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#1: I shove against a small stack and 3-4 bet a full stack guy......
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 6:18pm   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beaks View Post
The generally accepted play when facing a 3-bet preflop with AK is to move all-in. Previously in my game I was being quite random about it and varying play between 4-betting, calling and shoving depending on position etc.

Recently I've taken to coming over the top and going AI and I have to say it's been nothing short of disastrous. Time and time again I'm getting shown AA or KK and taking much the worst of it. I'll grind a session to be up a couple of buyins and then a few hands later I'm back where I started because I got whacked on a couple of AK shoves.

So I guess the question is whether this is a sound practice in the micros (25nl & 50nl) or whether it's best reserved for higher levels. In my experience only the real LAGs will significantly 3-bet anything but AA, KK, QQ or AK at lower limits so I'm not looking great against the calling range. Am I applying the rule too literally and is there a case for calling or 4-betting with full stacks preflop?

Would be useful to hear from micro players and also higher limit players on this one. 2 things would be good to hear:

1. What's your "standard play" without reads when facing a 3-bet preflop with AK? Assume that you raised and your action is now HU

2. When you shove with AK and you get called by a villain with a full stack what's his calling range based on showdown experience?
Wow. I didn't know it was generally accepted that you move in with AK when re-re-raised.

My experience is that at lower online limits, even in six max games, it is rare that someone three bets and when they do, they usually have a top four hand or they have a short stack and could have any pair or high ace type hand.

If the above is true, then the best policy would be to push against the short stacks and fold against the big stacks. You are splitting against AK, slightly behind QQ, and desperate to KK and AA. Calling is not an option. Only push once you have felt out the player and determined that he/she is three betting more than expected and has a good potential to be making a move on you.

Actually, this is probably a pretty good response for you to read, because I am one of these low limit donks who you are asking about. We sucky low limit players don't make three bets with AQ and JJ. Your AK isn't good unless we are short and then 44 looks like gold to us.

GL
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 6:42pm   #4
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Quote:
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We sucky low limit players don't make three bets with AQ and JJ.
I do.

But generally I'd agree that AK vs. a 3-bet is in bad shape at the micros.
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 7:56pm   #5
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Originally Posted by seedload View Post
Wow. I didn't know it was generally accepted that you move in with AK when re-re-raised.
Yeah, obviously I use the term "rule" very loosely in this thread but all over the usual forums you'll see the same thing: That folding AK preflop is a huge leak in the micros.

EDIT: I'm with Jokeslayer - I 3-bet AQ and JJ too, often wider.
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 7:58pm   #6
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There are some 50NL players that 3-bet a little light, especially from the blinds and on the button. If you find someone like that and they start 3-betting your button steal or CO steal then I think it's okay to shove AK.
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Old Mar 10, 2008, 8:08pm   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beaks View Post
Yeah, obviously I use the term "rule" very loosely in this thread but all over the usual forums you'll see the same thing: That folding AK preflop is a huge leak in the micros.

EDIT: I'm with Jokeslayer - I 3-bet AQ and JJ too, often wider.
Well, you see that. That is what makes poker such a great game. If you are three betting wider than AQ and JJ, then you are re-raising even wider than that - probably. If you are re-raising that often, then I am going to three bet you much more often, and if I am going to three bet you much more often, then your push with AK is probably correct. But, since you have AK less often when you re-raised, my three bet was probably correct and I just got caught. I think my nines are holding up. Let's go.

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Old Mar 10, 2008, 8:44pm   #8
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Are you playing full ring or 6-max?

My experience at full ring limts up to $100NL is that people are very passive and rarely 3bet. In fact the trend now seems to be to call with Aces and Kings because everyone knows that when you 3bet that is the hand you must have (good reason to 3bet light imo).

So I rarely shove AK unless I have a read that the villain is getting out of line. At best you are racing and at worst you are dominated.

AK comes into its own in shortstack situations, but shoving deepstacks often ends in disaster at passive micro limits.
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Old Mar 11, 2008, 5:38am   #9
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depends on
1. stacks - the bigger the less you wanna shove
2. position - the more early the less you wanna shove
3. stats - the tighter the less you wanna shove

A: 110BB stacks, you raise to 4BB UTG, villain is 18/6 and reraises from the CO. You fold.
B: 85BB stacks you raise 4BB in CO, villain is 30/18 and reraises from the BB, you move allin.
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Old Mar 11, 2008, 6:13pm   #10
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Generally I'm not to shy getting it in PF in SH 50NL especially if I am doing the pushing. Like Bubble said position is a big part of it as is obviously their stack sizes. Against an unknown I am normally willing to get it in and if they call I get information of sorts as to what their stack calling range is.
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