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Old May 11, 2008, 3:37pm   #1
SidMaynard
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Default PLO - Turn donk bet

Hand #52998460-16869 at Canada (Pot Limit Omaha)
Started at 11/May/08 10:55:25

juhroen is at seat 0 with $33.29.
j8de is at seat 1 with $13.94.
JH343998 is at seat 2 with $6.76.
Lady In Red is at seat 3 with $27.10.
ashley288 is at seat 4 with $6.48.
SidMynrd is at seat 5 with $29.96.
The button is at seat 2.

Lady In Red posts the small blind of $.10.
ashley288 posts the big blind of $.25.
juhroen: -- -- -- --
j8de: -- -- -- --
JH343998: -- -- -- --
Lady In Red: -- -- -- --
ashley288: -- -- -- --
SidMynrd: Ah Jh Ad 5s
Pre-flop:

SidMynrd calls. juhroen folds. j8de calls.
JH343998 raises to $.50. Lady In Red calls.
ashley288 calls. SidMynrd re-raises to $2.75. j8de
folds. JH343998 folds. Lady In Red calls.
ashley288 folds.

Flop (board: 4d Qh 2h):

Lady In Red checks. SidMynrd bets $6.75. Lady In
Red calls.

Turn (board: 4d Qh 2h Jd):

Lady In Red goes all-in for $17.60. SidMynrd ???

OK, I limped pf because a small raise was just getting 5 callers, so I would rather limp utg. Then when it is raised I figure a 4bet is in order to thin the field. On the flop I figured I had enough equity to get it all in so a cbet was good.

Now on the turn I was a bit stumped. Any thoughts on the play so far and do you call this?
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Last edited by SidMaynard; May 11, 2008 at 4:00pm.
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Old May 11, 2008, 7:20pm   #2
TWLLM
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Just FYI Sid, your c/3-bet preflop is *horrible*, as in, please for the love of God, never limp UTG and then 3-bet for around 10% of your stack - this is a really, really bad reverse implied odds play for aaxx oop. You will not get rid of the 4 limpers very often, and even if you do, you're playing oop against someone who can probably put you on a *very* well-defined range now (this screams aaxx, with occasional kkqj(ds) or high ds runs thrown in, perhaps).


Normally I would give respect to this turn push, because rarely would someone make such a ridiculous bare bluff. The problem, though, is that you defined your hand so clearly preflop that your opponent may now just be using that against you to semibluff you off it. And this is a very drawy board. Of course, this is 25PLO, so who knows if your opponent has any concept of playing against your range or not. Then again, if they're that clueless, maybe you're ahead because they're overplaying something like kkqt or kkjt etc (oesd+pair).

I'm not sure what the right move is here. If their range is qqxx, 44xx, 22xx, it's a fold, but if they are ever semibluffing (and remember, they could have a low run down for a low straight draw, not just the high draw), you probably have to cross your fingers and call. In my experience, the players I'm against will be semibluffing here a good amount of the time - a second flush draw just hit, and any reasonable combination of face cards has OESD or wrap potential to boot.

Did I mention how much I hate the preflop play? This is why. Also, think about how you would have had to react to a flop raise - again, this is why this is so ugly.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

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Old May 12, 2008, 8:26am   #3
SidMaynard
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Ok, point taken, shaking off NL HoldEm aint proving that easy!

I initially limped to avoid playing a multi-way raised pot oop, but you are right that I have defined my hand too obviously while not getting enough in the middle for it not to matter. Would you have raised pf with this hand utg, or just limped to see a flop?

In the end I called, as I couldn't put the villain on any hand that was ahead of me on the flop but wouldn't raise then. So that pretty much leaves QJ or JJ and a whole bunch of semi-bluff hands.

Villain turned over Qd 9c Td 6c. So they were semi-bluffing. Of course they spiked an 8 on the river.

When I ran it through a calculator, I was 60/40 on the turn so I wasn't unhappy about getting the rest in, but at these limits you dont often come across such an aggressive play so it foxed me at the time.

Does anyone know of an Omaha equity calculator that can handle ranges, as the one I use only does one hand per line?
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Old May 12, 2008, 3:42pm   #4
TWLLM
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I would probably have limped UTG and just called the minraise. I hate doing that, but the key is I hate re-raising far more.


NH.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old May 12, 2008, 4:10pm   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidMaynard View Post

Does anyone know of an Omaha equity calculator that can handle ranges, as the one I use only does one hand per line?

maybe you want to try this one out:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...tionEditor.jsp

edit: sorry prolly doesn't fit your request
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Old May 13, 2008, 4:03am   #6
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you can't really put someone on a range in omaha like in holdem, cause there are so many possibilities. If you say all combos of QJxx, what hands do you want to include? QJJJ? QJAK? just doesn't work that easily Sid.

As for the hand, TWLLM is right about preflop. I'd rather do that with a warp hand like T986 or something.

No idea about the turn.
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Old May 28, 2008, 3:27am   #7
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Don't know what u can beat. I think this is an easy fold with just a Pair.
This is PLO25 and people do have something if they bet.

btw: for sure is this a UTG raise with this Hand
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Old May 28, 2008, 3:48am   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sashstar View Post
Don't know what u can beat. I think this is an easy fold with just a Pair.
This is PLO25 and people do have something if they bet.

btw: for sure is this a UTG raise with this Hand
He doesn't have just a pair.


As for raising utg with this hand, if it were double-suited or single suited+strong connected (e.g. AAJT) then it would be raiseworthy utg. But aaxx is usually not worth a raise in early position - in fact, almost no hands in omaha are raiseworthy from utg at a full ring table, except perhaps if you have a strong speculative hand and want to minraise and confuse people (you'd be surprized how many people think a minraise utg is aaxx).
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old May 28, 2008, 5:20am   #9
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This is pretty much most of the time JJ or a drawing hand that got a flushdraw on the turn. I doubt any other hands play this way on this level (for sure no QQ/44/22 hands I think). As played I guess You have to call it because You not only have the overpair but hit the jack also (JJ far less likely) and have some Flush- and Str8-Outs at least.

Preflop play is said allready. Try not to overplay AAxx oop. If You have a chance to get most of Your stack in preflop thats fine. If not play a normal raise to get money in the pot if You hit a big hand or play it as a call to disguise Your hand. Limp/Raise is only fine if You can get at least 25% of Your stack in preflop (i like at least 33%)...
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Old May 28, 2008, 12:31pm   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
He doesn't have just a pair.


As for raising utg with this hand, if it were double-suited or single suited+strong connected (e.g. AAJT) then it would be raiseworthy utg. But aaxx is usually not worth a raise in early position - in fact, almost no hands in omaha are raiseworthy from utg at a full ring table, except perhaps if you have a strong speculative hand and want to minraise and confuse people (you'd be surprized how many people think a minraise utg is aaxx).
hm I missed the FD and well, the gs

but this is shorthanded, in my opinion u have to build a pot with AAonesuited and of course a lot of A[KQJT]x constellations (minimum onesuited).

I think you can't just raise the Aces doublesuited UTG in Omaha

"in fact, almost no hands in omaha are raiseworthy from utg at a full ring table"

I know you (both) are a good Players and I know that in Omaha the Position is much more necessary than in Holdem, but you can't just fold/limp every UTG hand imo
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