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Old Jun 09, 2008, 8:51am   #1
swanboy
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Default what do you think of my play play?

10c25c partypoker S/H cash

villain is BB on $27 I/m the Button with 5c5h on $29

2 limpers I raise to 1.50$ SB folds BB calls everyone else folds

Flop

5d2cAs

BB checks I check

Turn
Ah
BB $1.00 I raise to $3.00 BB calls
River
8h

BB $6.00 I raise A/I for rest of my stack Villain Calls

What do you think of my play and what do you put villain on?
thanks

Last edited by swanboy; Jun 09, 2008 at 9:23am.
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Old Jun 09, 2008, 1:06pm   #2
TrainedTiger
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Well, I see two mistakes here ...

1. with two limpers before, and with position after the flop. you are getting great odds to limp and try to hit the cheap set. A raise to 6X here makes the limpers fold and you only get called or raised by higher pairs and two overcard hands. If the flop comes and you miss the set, you are probably going to have to fold, meaning losing 6 times as much as you had to.

2. You DEFINETELY should have bet the flop when it was checked to you. a bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot was the move to make. you are giving a free card to any hand with a 3 or 4 in it to hit the inside straight draw, plus a bunch of other less likely draws get the free card too.

The rest of the way out, I don't see anything that wierd for you to do with a Full House, because anybody would think he has trip aces, and in that case the more you can get in the better. I can only guess he had A8 or 34 and won.
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Old Jun 09, 2008, 1:33pm   #3
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1.preflopraise is standard

2. bet flop
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Old Jun 09, 2008, 7:10pm   #4
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From your post title I assume you lost the hand so I'm putting him on pocket 8s. As previous posts said, definatly come out betting flop turn river if he ever checks. Other than that, unfortunate river.
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Old Jun 09, 2008, 7:23pm   #5
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Preflop: Limping or raising isn't wrong, however:

Flop: Since you raised, you have to cbet here IMO. Not doing so a. as someone mentioned before, lets hands draw @ you for free, but more importantly b. misses value, Ax hands make up alot of his preflop calling range and are exactly the kinds of hands that will call (or c/r) your cbet.

Turn: As played, raise is good.

River: Push is exactly right.

Overall: Obv., he beat you. AA, A8, A5, A2, or 88 are the only hands. In any case, it's a cooler don't worry. Perhaps a flop bet could have pushed 88 off the hand, but I think stacks were going in either way. Unlucky.

In the future, however, BET THE FLOP. AK, AQ, AJ may be willing to play for stacks on the flop, where you are way ahead. But checking behind doesn't give them the opportunity.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 1:28am   #6
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I don't think the PFR was standard at all, there are two reasons to limp, either one is compelling enough to make it a good play.

Reason 1: by making two limpers fold, that makes two less people to call you when you flop your set, drastically decreasing the concealed set's expected value. When you hit it 1 of 8 times you gotta have people in the pot to call your bet for implied odds. Otherwise, your going to have to get 8 players pre-flop, or go in thinking a pair of 5's will hold up, which is naive at best.

Reason 2: You invest money when the hand you hold is only marginal. You have 9 hands, each of which can be made 6 ways, for a total of 54 combinations that will call that have you a 4.5-1 underdog, and 64 hands, each of which can be made 8 ways for a total of 512 combinations that you are at a coin flip with. In the longterm, noone will say that is going to reap a benefit at a full table.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 7:10am   #7
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Preflop: Call. With a small pair you want many customers if you hit a set on the flop.

Flop: Bet $3. He may have a flush-draw, and you can´t let him have a free card. He may also be trying to check-raise, so bet and let him do so.

Turn: Raise to $3. At this point we want to get the most out of our hand, and if we raise more, he may fold a flush-draw.

River: Raise all-in. If he has trips or a house, he will call, and he is more likely to have trips.

If I had to guess what hand he has, I would say A8o, but only because people tend to post hand histories where they were unlucky. If ignoring that, I would have guessed he has an ace with a medium or high kicker.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 8:02am   #8
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I want to defend preflop raises with low pocket pairs for the following reasons:

1. Yes, while you chase away mediocre to lesser hands, all you can really expect to make a good deal of money off of is them catching about two pair, I don't see them calling you down with middle or low pair on the board. If they catch anything strong enough to call it's going to be a straight or a flush that nullifies your trips strength anyway. The small chance that they might call a bet on the flop with a weak hand is not worth keeping them in a pot you can steal if they're not there.

2. Raising preflop disguises your hand. Limping, having a set hit, and betting screams that you hit two pair or a set, especially if theres an ace or king out there. Raising is preferable because even if you don't hit, and you get an ace high flop checked to you, you will get a decent amount of pot steals by representing top pair good kicker.

3. Raising gives you the chance to take down the pot preflop. If the limpers are weak and you've been playing tight, they might over read your hand. On the flip side of this, many limpers could cause a raise from an aggressive blind seat thus putting you on a decision on whether to call a weak pocket pair against either a possible steal, a coinflip, or a possible dominating hand like an overpair.

4. Raising provides information. TrainedTiger mentioned that low pocket pairs are dominated by all the overpairs, however limping with solid pocket pairs should be rare. In the rare occasion where a player did this, it would be even rarer (read stupid) for a solid overpair not to reraise you, thus giving a fairly easy fold. As for the overcards which are a coinflip, again you'll get information. AK or AQ, maybe AJ or AT, again hands that shouldnt be open limping often, will probably reraise you. If they merely call, you'll get two flops which increase the value of your position, if they check, depending on previous read's of their playstyle, they probably did not hit and again can semibluff to take down a shorthanded pot. If they bet (and your set didnt hit), you can again be fairly sure (with previous reads) that they aren't donk betting a hand worse than yours, easy lay down. Either way, limping preflop can get you into marginal situations where you stand to lose more money than the small amount in the preflop raise. I know this point combined some of the arguments of previous points, but I think it was essential to detail the specific situations where value is gained.

Standard play says take cheap flops with low pocket pairs, however I believe that by playing your pocket pairs strong against most low stakes cash games, I do believe you're likely to make more money in the long run. I think it's been overstated the need to limp with low pocket pairs, and am gladly willing to debate this point with the members of this forum (most if not all who are more experienced/profitable than me on both cash and sngs).

Last edited by DetroxAkante; Jun 10, 2008 at 8:17am.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 8:30am   #9
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thanks for the replies

villain had A2 ie he had 2 pair on flop I guess this was just unlucky as he would have called a flop bet .i take on board all your suggestions thanks
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 6:51pm   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroxAkante View Post
I want to defend preflop raises with low pocket pairs for the following reasons:

1. Yes, while you chase away mediocre to lesser hands, all you can really expect to make a good deal of money off of is them catching about two pair, I don't see them calling you down with middle or low pair on the board. If they catch anything strong enough to call it's going to be a straight or a flush that nullifies your trips strength anyway. The small chance that they might call a bet on the flop with a weak hand is not worth keeping them in a pot you can steal if they're not there. You have to look at the hands that are folding to your bet to see that this logic is incorrect. The hands that will be folding are in the range of AJ, KQ, etc., these hands if making a pair will almost always call your bet on the flop with the set. The A4 or T8 type hands don't generally limp in the first place so it isn't these hands that that you are "chasing away".

2. Raising preflop disguises your hand. Limping, having a set hit, and betting screams that you hit two pair or a set, especially if theres an ace or king out there. Raising is preferable because even if you don't hit, and you get an ace high flop checked to you, you will get a decent amount of pot steals by representing top pair good kicker. Raising preflop disguises your hand, more than limping? Limping gives no information, while raises announce strength. Also, a decent player is bound to use the "rope a dope" strategy, if they hit the flop. Letting you bet, then flat calling, until they lead with a big river bet when you are pot committed to a crappy hand.

3. Raising gives you the chance to take down the pot preflop. If the limpers are weak and you've been playing tight, they might over read your hand. On the flip side of this, many limpers could cause a raise from an aggressive blind seat thus putting you on a decision on whether to call a weak pocket pair against either a possible steal, a coinflip, or a possible dominating hand like an overpair. To win the pot preflop with 4 other people in it, how much do you have to raise? The answer: a lot more than 55 is worth making. This a very easy way to get trapped. If the blind seat is aggressive, you stand a high risk of him coming over the top of your raise too. If he raises and you have limped you lose 1BB and eagerly await the next hand that will be around in a few seconds.

4. Raising provides information. TrainedTiger mentioned that low pocket pairs are dominated by all the overpairs, however limping with solid pocket pairs should be rare. Define solid In the rare occasion where a player did this, it would be even rarer (read stupid) for a solid overpair not to reraise you, thus giving a fairly easy fold. Even easier if you arent 5 times as invested As for the overcards which are a coinflip, again you'll get information. AK or AQ, maybe AJ or AT, again hands that shouldnt be open limping often, will probably reraise you. And this means fold, right? If they merely call, you'll get two flops which increase the value of your position,You would be last to act if there were 2 players or twenty players, the position is worth just as much, however your winning percentage is reduced greatly and you are in the same situation as if you limped as far as pot odds. All you did was build a pot when you are an underdog, not profitable., if they check, depending on previous read's of their playstyle, they probably did not hit or are using rope a dope and again can semibluff to take down a shorthanded pot. or get trapped If they raise (and your set didnt hit), you can again be fairly sure (with previous reads) that they aren't donk betting a hand worse than yours, easy lay down.losing 6 times what you would have lost if you limped Either way, limping preflop can get you into marginal situations the type you are expecting with marginal hands, this is the exact reason to play them cheap.where you stand to lose more money than the small amount in the preflop raise. The one time you hit the set against top pair and double up has at least triple the +EV of the times that you won a few blinds, minus the times you got trapped and took a big hit, which for an inexperienced player could VERY easily be -EV.I know this point combined some of the arguments of previous points, but I think it was essential to detail the specific situations where value is gained.

Standard play says take cheap flops with low pocket pairs, however I believe that by playing your pocket pairs strong against most low stakes cash games, I do believe you're likely to make more money in the long run. I think it's been overstated the need to limp with low pocket pairs, and am gladly willing to debate this point with the members of this forum (most if not all who are more experienced/profitable than me on both cash and sngs).
It is the case example of a small investment with small risk making a big return, or a big investment with big risk to make a small return.

Last edited by TrainedTiger; Jun 10, 2008 at 6:56pm.
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