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Old Jun 10, 2008, 7:48pm   #11
Omulae
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If you hit a set vs an ace, you need to raise, because even if he hits say a king on the turn, hes not going to throw out a huge raise with an ace on the board, most of the time your just going to let people draw out to get lucky on you imo
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 10:10pm   #12
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catching about two pair, I don't see them calling you down with middle or low pair on the board. If they catch anything strong enough to call it's going to be a straight or a flush that nullifies your trips strength anyway. The small chance that they might call a bet on the flop with a weak hand is not worth keeping them in a pot you can steal if they're not there. You have to look at the hands that are folding to your bet to see that this logic is incorrect. The hands that will be folding are in the range of AJ, KQ, etc., these hands if making a pair will almost always call your bet on the flop with the set. The A4 or T8 type hands don't generally limp in the first place so it isn't these hands that that you are "chasing away".

First, from what I've seen of .1/.25, AJ and KQ won't be folding to a single raise, in fact thats exactly the hands that will call a single raise while you're chasing away low suited connectors. I don't know why you think hands like T8s aren't the ones limping. As far as I can tell, the only hands you say limp are AJ+ and slowplayed JJ+, I doubt this. Again basic strategy says if you're gonna play trouble hands like KJ, KQ, come out raising with them, so either these arent the hands they have, or you're playing bad players who will definately limp/call.


2. Raising preflop disguises your hand. Limping, having a set hit, and betting screams that you hit two pair or a set, especially if theres an ace or king out there. Raising is preferable because even if you don't hit, and you get an ace high flop checked to you, you will get a decent amount of pot steals by representing top pair good kicker. Raising preflop disguises your hand, more than limping? Limping gives no information, while raises announce strength. Also, a decent player is bound to use the "rope a dope" strategy, if they hit the flop. Letting you bet, then flat calling, until they lead with a big river bet when you are pot committed to a crappy hand.

Again I disagree. A good player should only really be raising preflop with the occasional limp. Limping your money in the pot may not seem like much, but after 7 or 8 times, your bleeding it away. If you're going to be in a pot, get in there and be aggressive unless you have reads that the table is tight. The rope a dope is a strong tactic, so reads on which players are good and which arent are important, but being scared that a player is always holding strength isn't a good way to play. Cbetting the flop if you miss is fine, I'm not saying triple barrel every weak pp you get, I'm saying pick your spots and pick up enough steals to make the one time you do get slowplayed pay for itself. Also you shouldn't be "pot committed" simply due to a single raise and a cbet, if you are, you're betting too much.

3. Raising gives you the chance to take down the pot preflop. If the limpers are weak and you've been playing tight, they might over read your hand. On the flip side of this, many limpers could cause a raise from an aggressive blind seat thus putting you on a decision on whether to call a weak pocket pair against either a possible steal, a coinflip, or a possible dominating hand like an overpair. To win the pot preflop with 4 other people in it, how much do you have to raise? The answer: a lot more than 55 is worth making. This a very easy way to get trapped. If the blind seat is aggressive, you stand a high risk of him coming over the top of your raise too. If he raises and you have limped you lose 1BB and eagerly await the next hand that will be around in a few seconds.

Firstly. Theres 3 people in the hands, raising gives the blinds a reason not to waste money by calling, so the worries are the limpers and then you again follow the above strategy of postflop play. Again, limping away money constantly vs losing the occansional preflop raise are going to cost the same, it a question of how much money your making when you hit, and I contend raising preflop is going to make you more.


4. Raising provides information. TrainedTiger mentioned that low pocket pairs are dominated by all the overpairs, however limping with solid pocket pairs should be rare. Define solid In the rare occasion where a player did this, it would be even rarer (read stupid) for a solid overpair not to reraise you, thus giving a fairly easy fold. Even easier if you arent 5 times as invested As for the overcards which are a coinflip, again you'll get information. AK or AQ, maybe AJ or AT, again hands that shouldnt be open limping often, will probably reraise you. And this means fold, right? If they merely call, you'll get two flops which increase the value of your position,You would be last to act if there were 2 players or twenty players, the position is worth just as much, however your winning percentage is reduced greatly and you are in the same situation as if you limped as far as pot odds. All you did was build a pot when you are an underdog, not profitable., if they check, depending on previous read's of their playstyle, they probably did not hit or are using rope a dope and again can semibluff to take down a shorthanded pot. or get trapped If they raise (and your set didnt hit), you can again be fairly sure (with previous reads) that they aren't donk betting a hand worse than yours, easy lay down.losing 6 times what you would have lost if you limped Either way, limping preflop can get you into marginal situations the type you are expecting with marginal hands, this is the exact reason to play them cheap.where you stand to lose more money than the small amount in the preflop raise. The one time you hit the set against top pair and double up has at least triple the +EV of the times that you won a few blinds, minus the times you got trapped and took a big hit, which for an inexperienced player could VERY easily be -EV.I know this point combined some of the arguments of previous points, but I think it was essential to detail the specific situations where value is gained.

Define solid? Well strong would be JJ+, things you wouldnt fold to a reraise, and at least 99+ should be raising to enter a pot. 88 and below are going to be considered weaker and may possibly be limped (exactly the strategy I'm arguing against) especially if they're held in early position. As for overcards reraising you, yes I'd fold if they 3 bet, (if weaker than that, you might be getting implied odds to hit and take his stack. But again, you're assuming that everytime people limp and you raise you're going to hit a player who was slow playing, this will be the exception, not the rule. The reason I said position value was increased is because now players have to decide between donk betting a strong hand that they're scared of getting drawed on (good info), or they check to you and let you either cbet steal or take a free turn to get another shot at a set. If you don't raise, players oop can read those waiting behind them to be weak to midpair or worse, and take a stab at stealing. You did more than just build the pot, you built an image of strength. Useful for stealing.

"rope a dope" line: again, the exception not the rule. Look for it, don't over cbet and make a note of players who do that. "Losing 6 times what you would have lost": umm, standard pot raises are 3x bb, maybe 4x. So you're losing at most 3x what you would have lost, not 6.

"Marginal hands" despite the perceived weakness, pocket pairs aren't marginal. For instance 55 does get beaten by 9 hands, however it beats alot more than 9. In coinflips don't forget its the favorite, we always see the ace hit the flop, but more often than not 55 will be better than AJ, you can't play scared of always getting out flopped because high cards have more paint.

"set against top pair double up" - This line seems counter intuitive. I argue its much more likely youll get the entire stack off of a top pair player when you raise preflop, if you raise and he hits top pair, he thinks he just caught against you and is going to take your stack and will be much more liberal with his chips. If you're limping and playing strong against top pair, he'll be alot more suspicious of what a seemingly weak preflop player could have.

Again I think we are having disagreements because we argue over the amount of times we are going to be slowplayed trapped. Also you assume every time we're slowplayed that we're going to take a good hit, while a solid player should be able to get away from a fair number of these situations. I look forward to answering any other contentions.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 11:04pm   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanboy View Post
10c25c partypoker S/H cash

villain is BB on $27 I/m the Button with 5c5h on $29

2 limpers I raise to 1.50$ SB folds BB calls everyone else folds
A raise is ok here, because that way when you hit you are playing in a raised pot which = more likely to get a larger portion of your opponents stack when he has an ace (a good portion of a range of any caller). A call is also fine, because you have 2 limpers and the bb. Gives better chance that someone will hit a hand worth putting money in for when you hit a set.

Flop

5d2cAs

BB checks I check Don't check unless you are very multi way and you are confident someone is going to bet out for you. You'll get value from an ace here, as well as a strong hand that wants to check raise you. I bet around 2/3 the pot.

Turn
Ah
BB $1.00 I raise to $3.00 BB calls Raise is fine, though obviously it'd have been more if you bet the flop.
River
8h

BB $6.00 I raise A/I for rest of my stack Villain Calls Standard, aces are going all-in here, and you beat all but 4 of them (AA, A8, A5, A2).

In general, the goal of this hand is to get the most value from draws/aces. In any similar situation it is a good idea to bet that flop, especially if there is a flush draw. You want the draw to pay a bad price to stay in the hand = you make money.

What do you think of my play and what do you put villain on?
thanks
Well, I'd like to read the wall of text preceding my post, but I think I'll just answer your post instead of getting involved.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 7:39am   #14
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At NL25 most players are loose passive, so we can expect the limpers to have a wide range of hands which includes very good hands and possibly great hands. But their range is better than a range including all hands. We thus expect the two limpers to have better than average hands.

So we have two players already in the pot who we know have better than average hands, and there are two players behind us as well. If we raise, chances are we will only get called by better pairs and high overcards, which is not a good situation to be in.

If we get re-raised, we have to fold, and lose many times more than if we limp-fold. To be fair, the chance of someone raising/re-raising increases if we limp instead of raise, but still.

In sum, raising is probably -EV, whereas limping is +EV.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 8:32am   #15
DetroxAkante
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Mushroom View Post
At NL25 most players are loose passive, so we can expect the limpers to have a wide range of hands which includes very good hands and possibly great hands. But their range is better than a range including all hands. We thus expect the two limpers to have better than average hands.

Hmmm, loose passive? i.e. limping with lower than average hands as well as higher than average hands? Sure they're not playing 28o, but suited connectors and medium overcards (TQ, 9K) are more likely than against tight players. So I think you might be overreading their hand strength.

So we have two players already in the pot who we know have better than average hands, (again, maybe not) and there are two players behind us as well. If we raise, chances are we will only get called by better pairs and high overcards, (you said loose passive, meaning they'll be willing to call with the weaker hands, tight players would fold to the raises, not loose passive)which is not a good situation to be in.

If we get re-raised, we have to fold, (maybe, a 3 bet by the CO would surely cause a fold, but a min or low reraise by the blinds which is double called creates enough equity to call) and lose many times more than if we limp-fold. To be fair, the chance of someone raising/re-raising increases if we limp instead of raise, but still. (still what? there are very few hands/players, that want alot of players in the flop, I believe most blinds with mediocre to decent hands will raise pf if there are 2 or more callers + the sb, but maybe I just sit at aggressive tables)

In sum, raising is probably -EV, whereas limping is +EV. I'm not fully convinced, you didn't respond to the comparison of post flop value with chances to steal as well as stack up with both situations. Again, I can understand the fear of big hands, so I guess in most cases more info is needed (i.e. what is our table image, how has the table been playing, how have the specific players been playing, any major tilts/coolers in the recent past etc.) but I believe overall being the aggressor preflop creates many more options and value for you, especially with low pp's.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 8:58am   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Mushroom
We thus expect the two limpers to have better than average hands.

Hmmm, loose passive? i.e. limping with lower than average hands as well as higher than average hands?
Yes, but more higher than average hands than lower than average.

Quote:
If we raise, chances are we will only get called by better pairs and high overcards, (you said loose passive, meaning they'll be willing to call with the weaker hands, tight players would fold to the raises, not loose passive)
But they usually won´t call with T8o or A3o. My point is that they will call with hands you don´t want to call and fold hands you don´t want them to fold.

Quote:
If we get re-raised, we have to fold, (maybe, a 3 bet by the CO would surely cause a fold, but a min or low reraise by the blinds which is double called creates enough equity to call)
Yes, if the re-raise is small and/or there are several callers, we could call.
Quote:
and lose many times more than if we limp-fold. To be fair, the chance of someone raising/re-raising increases if we limp instead of raise, but still. (still what?
My point was to show the increased risk of raising. If you raise to 6BBs and have to fold to a re-raise, you lose 6BBs. If you limp and have to fold to a raise, you lose 1BB. If the chance of a raise/re-raise increases by 50% if you limp, that is the equivalent to losing 6BBs if you raise and 1,5BBs if you call.
Quote:
In sum, raising is probably -EV, whereas limping is +EV. I'm not fully convinced, you didn't respond to the comparison of post flop value with chances to steal as well as stack up with both situations.
Your chances of stealing is of course greater postflop if you raise, because you represent a better hand than if you called and because there would be fewer people on the flop.

But it also means you will have a harder time getting value for your set because the opponent(s) will put you on a better hand than if you had called preflop, and because it is less unlikely an opponent hits something on the flop.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 9:22am   #17
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Quoting all of that would be too much so I'll go with the # system.

1. Ok, I'll stipulate higher than average assuming the average is about K6o (perhaps that is high or low, if so, correct me.)

2. Yea T8, A3 wont etc, but over cards will, and again, we're the slight favorite here, not to mention if they don't hit, they will check and we can steal with a smart cbet (depending on flop texture). If they do hit, get away from a donk bet. If we both hit, theres the $$.

3. Ok we agree.

4. Again, I tend to keep my raises between 3-5 which may seem small, but I almost never limp so it tends to be a very good disguise for monsters and weak hands alike. I guess I assumed too much that other players should be rarely limping pf (even ignoring this case which I would consider a rare exception where limping may be ok). So yes, you might lose 3-5x the limp, but again depending on the aggressiveness of the table, you might lose 3-5 limps by not raising and blocking attempted steals and thus folding to following raises. I'm not arguing that you save money preflop (although I'm not denying it either), I'm claiming that at the least, the preflop value is even money (lost).

5. With your last statement I probably disagree the most. Strong aggression from a limper post flop seems much more suspicious than a standard postflop raise after a pf raise which could be interpreted as cbetting a decent hand, cbetting air, button stealing, value betting a piece of the flop (good draw< mid pair < top pair), or betting a good hand like two pair . The postflop betting reads for a pf limper are either: slow playing a strong hand, catching a set, or again attempting a button steal.

People tend to believe that since they're betting their strong hands twice, people will catch on quick, however its usually a significant change in betting pattern that causes more suspicion and fear than a continuation of strength or weakness.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 9:56am   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroxAkante View Post
1. Ok, I'll stipulate higher than average assuming the average is about K6o (perhaps that is high or low, if so, correct me.)
In terms of chances of winning at showdown it is too high, in terms of what is an average hand in a deep stack game, it sounds about right.

Quote:
2. Yea T8, A3 wont etc, but over cards will, and again, we're the slight favorite here, not to mention if they don't hit, they will check and we can steal with a smart cbet (depending on flop texture). If they do hit, get away from a donk bet. If we both hit, theres the $$.
When up against high overcards, no one has an advantage. Some flops are good for you, some are bad for you. It evens out.

When up against overpairs, you are usually fucked.

Quote:
4. So yes, you might lose 3-5x the limp, but again depending on the aggressiveness of the table, you might lose 3-5 limps by not raising and blocking attempted steals and thus folding to following raises.
I don´t understand what you are trying to say here. You can´t lose 3-5BBs when you only put in 1BB.

Quote:
I'm not arguing that you save money preflop (although I'm not denying it either), I'm claiming that at the least, the preflop value is even money (lost).
So a little better than even money preflop, and a coinflip or being dominated postflop. Not a good idea.

Quote:
5. With your last statement I probably disagree the most. Strong aggression from a limper post flop seems much more suspicious than a standard postflop raise after a pf raise
While aggression postflop would indicate a set more strongly if you limp preflop than if you raise, a raise preflop would indicate a stronger ace and a higher pocket pair than if you limp. If an opponent hits the flop, he will be more worried about being outkicked or facing a higher pair than a set, especially on low levels.

It is also common to limp suited connectors preflop, so the opponent would also be interested in protecting his hand from a draw especially if there are 2 of one suit on the flop.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 12:53pm   #19
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You are thinking of the classic pair vs. two overcards race, detro where the pair is 55/45 favorite. In this case however, it is extremely likely to be against 4 overcards, where the 55 would be a 3.2-1 underdog. And 3.2-1 underdog is NOT a place where you want to get your money in obviously.

He is saying you lose 3-5BBs by limp-folding 3-5 times, where you lose 3-5BBs also by raise folding once. This also is quite illogical thinking, because it requires winning when raising way too often. The 55 doesn't get better because you raise, it is still 55.


Something I have to say now to shut up the continuation betting argument and save use all ANOTHER 6 hours reading nonsense. If you have raised PF 3X, blinds fold and two limpers call, the PF pot is now 10.5 BBs. Your continuation bet to this flop wouldn't be cheap, it would have to be around 5-6 times the BB! and would likely get called at least 85% of the time because you would still be giving pot odds of about 3-1 to first position and if he calls 4-1 to second position. But, even if they did fold half of the time and you were somewhere around break even on that bet, the times they use the hammer defense and re-raise, or flop a monster, you have lost about 8BB on a hand that you still only have a 1 in 8 chance of hitting(if you dont make a set on the flop, you are 22-1 on the turn and will never get those pot odds so you'll never see the turn, thus you still only hit 1 of 8 times; the times on the flop). When you do hit it you can't imply that you would win a pot of over 64BB to make it +EV.


On the other hand if you limp with these low pairs, lets go with the WORST case scenario and say you are at a very aggressive table and only get to see half of the flops when you limp with small pairs. on the flops you see you hit a set one out of 8, so you are invested 16BB's for every time you hit the set, agree? It is easy to say you could build a pot greater than 16BB's by the river making +EV a given. If the other hands hit top pair or two pair or something like that +EV goes through the roof!


The argument against aggression on this hand has really been summed up in two statements by me and Lord Mushroom.

"So a little better than even money preflop, and a coinflip or being dominated postflop. Not a good idea." -Lord Mushroom

"It is the case example of a small investment with small risk making a big return, or a big investment with big risk to make a small return. " -me

Maybe in the late stages of a tournament, or a tight shorthand limit game you could make more sense, but not in a standard no limit game. You also asked in a previous post for someone else with experience and succes to weigh in on the subject and Lord Mushroom has, and he's no pushover I'm sure.

Last edited by TrainedTiger; Jun 11, 2008 at 12:57pm.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 1:37pm   #20
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had there been no initial limpers in my earlier example the would a raise of pocket pair first to act be standard +ve play.

I guess what I,m asking is should you invariably raise your pocket pairs 22---AA when first to act in SH 6table cash games $25.

I have started to do this and have noticed an improvement in my winrate. Indeed I never limp when first to act in this sort of game I always raise .Do you think that to be a good play?

thanks
Steve
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