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Old Jun 11, 2008, 3:48pm   #21
TrainedTiger
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Good Question.

The idea is that small pairs play best in a multiway cheap pots. If you were on the button, it was folded around, and only the blinds to act behind you then you would want to raise it, because the multiway option is out of the question. If the blind seats were passive you would take the blinds, if they were aggressive or calling stations you would likely be heads up with a slight edge.

As far as "invariably raise your pocket pairs 22---AA when first to act", you have to seperate pocket pairs into groups, JJ-AA being big pairs, TT-66 being medium, and 66-22 being small is pretty common. You still want small and medium pairs to get their best situation, a cheap multiway pot. But with big pairs you want to raise for value so that you can build a larger pot. The difference in the types of pocket pairs is the percentage of time that you still hold the best hand post flop. AA unimproved will still win a lot of the time, while 66 unimproved will almost never hold up.

That being said, position plays a factor in your ability to induce a multiway pot or not. In early position if you raise with say 66, you greatly reduce the chance that players behind you will call, therefore forfieting your chance to get in the best situation with that hand. On the flip side, if you limp with KK in the cutoff, you forfiet your chance to build a pot that allows for larger post flop bets. so a general rule is like:

Early position: raise AA-JJ, limp TT-66, fold 55-22 if raised behind you, re-raise QQ+, fold 88 or less unless at least four others call the raise in front of you, call 99-JJ.

Middle position: raise AA-TT, limp 99-44, fold 33 and 22. If raised, re-raise QQ+, fold 77 or less unless 4+ calls, call 88-JJ.

Button and cut-off: raise AA-22, call raise with 99+

I'm talking about standard raises of about 3-5BB's, if it is a big raise then you should only have two moves, fold or all-in with QQ+.

Finally, do you mean you always raise with any two cards when first to act? if so you are going to have to have a Gus Hansen or Phil Ivey post flop game. Just because you are first to enter doesn't mean that you have to make a move, this is destined to fail after you show down a few crappy hands or fold 75% of the time to flop bets. Being first to act does allow you to use the Gap concept effectively, and lower your PF raising requirements. But not to the point where you are setting yourself up for disaster. I don't know that anyone else does this, but the way I hash this out is I will raise with what I would call with in late position if I am opening.

By the way, Always and never are your two worst enemies when you start playing better opponents, if you always or never do anything, you can bet that you will quickly be figured out and a strategy will be implemented against you.

Last edited by TrainedTiger; Jun 11, 2008 at 3:52pm.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 4:05pm   #22
swanboy
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thanks what I mean't was that I raise when first to act ,not any hand of course ,but I will raise occasionally from UTG 6handed with high SC down to 7/6s but generally I play very tight from UTG and looser from C/O / Button.

thanks again Steve
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 4:26pm   #23
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Hi swanboy,
an article to read :

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=1#Post7827947
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 4:58pm   #24
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thanks very much will read and diggest and hopefully implement i note raising seems to be key which is how I tend to play but have to admit that I have only recently begun to adopt this more aggressive stance.previously tended to limp a lot then get some of the flop and end up with difficult decisions which i all too often got wrong!!
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 5:08pm   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainedTiger View Post
You also asked in a previous post for someone else with experience and succes to weigh in on the subject and Lord Mushroom has, and he's no pushover I'm sure.
I appreciate the compliments, but my experience and success is actually very limited despite a pretty high post-count. I would imagine some people would even burst into laughter from reading your description of me. But don´t worry, it is all good.

And another thing, you seem awfully talented for your post-count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swanboy View Post
had there been no initial limpers in my earlier example the would a raise of pocket pair first to act be standard +ve play.
Yes, 55 on the button is a strong hand, and you should protect it. Even 22 should be raised here due to fold equity. If the SB and the BB have big stacks too, it is a clear raise as there would be plenty of cash to be milked if you hit a set.

Quote:
I guess what I,m asking is should you invariably raise your pocket pairs 22---AA when first to act in SH 6table cash games $25.
It depends on which pair you have, what position you have and how your opponents are, but usually, yes.

General guidelines when deciding whether to call or raise when it is folded to you preflop (assuming folding is out of the question):

1) The higher the pair, the more likely it is you should raise. With a big pair you raise to get value or protect your hand. With a small pair, you call because you have implied odds to do so.

2) The later position (the SB counts as late position here), the more likely it is you should raise. The later position, the more likely it is your pair is better than the hands of the remaining players.

3) The tighter your opponents are, the more likely it is you should raise.
Increased fold equity makes raising smaller pairs profitable. If you limp against tight players, you will get very few callers, and if anyone wants to be in the pot they, will usually raise instead of call.

As I rule of thumb I would recommend this when you hold a pocket pair preflop:
If you think it is profitable to raise/re-raise, then do so. If you don´t, call if you think it is profitable to do so. Otherwise fold.

There are exceptions to this rule, but I think it is a good approach which is easy to follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainedTiger View Post
The difference in the types of pocket pairs is the percentage of time that you still hold the best hand post flop.
Very well put.

Quote:
AA unimproved will still win a lot of the time, while 66 unimproved will almost never hold up.
While I agree AA unimproved will still win a lot more often than 66 unimproved, 66 still has a pretty good chance of winning when you only have one opponent on the flop. If the opponent had overcards preflop, he probably missed the flop too.
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Old Jun 11, 2008, 6:05pm   #26
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Thanks Lord Mushroom, I have played and studied poker for a while. Just recently noticed this website.

You are right, I was too hasty to say 66 almost never holds up, lol. I may have exaggerated it to more clearly make the point.

This turned into a really good thread, props to Swanboy for asking good questions. I'm convinced this is exactly the kind of thing that these forums were designed for. The format of posting a hand history, analyzing the mistakes, then coming to a collective conclusion that satisfies sound theory and logical mathmatics works quite efficiently.

Last edited by TrainedTiger; Jun 11, 2008 at 6:10pm.
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Old Jun 12, 2008, 7:05am   #27
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Because I don't want to quote two very well thought out response posts and counter argue all of them, I'll sum up my main responses.

1. Yes, Tiger interpretted my meaning of limps getting stolen over time correctly. Maybe by looking at this one specific hand it seems that you are losing money preflop, but by consistently raising pp you will be making enough money by steals and sets to cover the few times your reraised pf or donk bet post flop. Looked at too specifically as applied to one hand it looks questionable, but consistent preflop aggression much more effectively masks your post flop hand than limping suited connectors and low pp's and raising good overcards/high pairs.

2. Yes the cbet would have to be fairly large that is true, but I highly disagree on your percentages. 85% of the time a player is going to have 3:1 odds on a player he should be reading as a very strong TAG player? I don't think so. Maybe 25% of the time, remember if he hit the flop big, its in his best interest to bet into the raiser he reads as strong especially with two possible callers. So while he may be slow play checking, again I think this is the exception and double checks provide a weak showing for an ample opportunity to pot steal.

3. Your advice about pocket pair raising percentages is good, however is probably known by most nl25 players. So two limpers oop should be extremely unlikely to be holding strong pocket pairs since the vast majority of the time we are expecting them to raise such hands. What I find to be less common is the understanding of the power of TAG play preflop with consistent cbets post flop. Again, for every time you get caught in the bluff I think there is going to be 3 to 4 times you're not caught. So a 10 bb penalty (4 pf, 6 post flop) for a 24 bb gain over 4 hands provides better reason to raise imo. Again we might be disagreeing on the likelyhoods of cbets and pf raises to succeed in their intended strength perception but I think we are focusing too much of the unlikely situations of the oop players holding true strength and perfect perception of hole cards.

I don't mean any disrespect by disagreeing with your opinions, especially since I believe both of you are probably much more profitable and talented players in comparison to me. It's just this specific situation that I tend to disagree with you guys on. Also I agree with everything said in response to the question about players all folding to the button. Nice responses.

Great thread.

Edit - Just read that article Maaa posted. "Example 2:

UTG limps, MP limps, you hold 22 on the button. What do you do?

Answer: RAISE THAT [censored] UP


If they call, you will take it down often enough with a continuation bet to make it profitable. And BTW, continuation bet 75-90% of the time. They will most likely fold a hand that didn’t hit."

"1) you steal the blinds if they all fold
2) if they call you, they are playing a raised pot out of position and you have the advantage. Continuation betting with nothing often takes the pot down.
3) Flopping sets / monsters in unraised pots is basically a crap pot.
4) People are more likely to go broke on raised pots than unraised pots, they will bluff you more and ship more money your way."

-My point exactly

Last edited by DetroxAkante; Jun 12, 2008 at 7:09am.
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Old Jun 12, 2008, 11:06am   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroxAkante View Post
3. So two limpers oop should be extremely unlikely to be holding strong pocket pairs since the vast majority of the time we are expecting them to raise such hands.
This is true for NL25 sharks, but not fish. A fish is usually passive and will limp with pretty high pairs.

Quote:
UTG limps, MP limps, you hold 22 on the button. What do you do?

Answer: RAISE THAT [censored] UP
He is talking about higher stakes where players aren´t as passive and limping indicates a speculative hand.

Quote:
"1) you steal the blinds if they all fold
2) if they call you, they are playing a raised pot out of position and you have the advantage. Continuation betting with nothing often takes the pot down.
3) Flopping sets / monsters in unraised pots is basically a crap pot.
4) People are more likely to go broke on raised pots than unraised pots, they will bluff you more and ship more money your way."
There are no limpers in this example.
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Old Jun 12, 2008, 9:28pm   #29
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"There are no limpers in this example": While he does say it's what to do with no limpers, he says to do the same thing with limpers just a few lines down. It's because position is so worth it regardless of the limpers. Points 1-4 still apply regardless of whether theres 0 or 3 limpers in the pot.

Also as to the stakes he's refering to:

"There is quite a lack of information on how to properly play 6 max TAG and I am mostly appalled at how the lower stakes players are completely missing out on the fundamentals. This post will merely cover the basics of 6 max, positional preflop play and image, and not quite on advanced play."
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Old Jun 13, 2008, 12:18am   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroxAkante View Post
"There are no limpers in this example": While he does say it's what to do with no limpers, he says to do the same thing with limpers just a few lines down.
Indeed he did. I was too lazy to read the whole thing.

But I think he is wrong. He is ignoring the fact that when you raise with limpers in front, you are likely to get fewer players on the flop if there is a flop.

While this is also true for open-raising, it is much less so.

Quote:
"There is quite a lack of information on how to properly play 6 max TAG and I am mostly appalled at how the lower stakes players are completely missing out on the fundamentals. This post will merely cover the basics of 6 max, positional preflop play and image, and not quite on advanced play."
You are right again. This didn´t stick when I read it.

But it seems to me he is giving advice which is fundamental on medium stakes and just assumes that it would be fundamental on low stakes as well. If we look at his 4 reasons for raising, we see that number 1 and 2 works less against low stakes players (who are loose). While 3 and 4 are "loose/tight neutral".
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