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Old Jun 28, 2008, 7:30pm   #1
joeyjoejoejr
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Default Check Raise?

Table 'Lundia' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: eugene4444 ($249.85 in chips)
Seat 3: joeyjoejr ($730.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Raakile ($425.95 in chips)
Seat 6: antchev ($603.40 in chips)
joeyjoejr: posts small blind $2
Raakile: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to joeyjoejr [Kc Kh Jh Js]
jmiquel joins the table at seat #5
antchev: raises $10 to $14
eugene4444: calls $14
joeyjoejr: raises $46 to $60
Raakile: folds
antchev: calls $46
eugene4444: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd 9s Qc]
joeyjoejr: checks
antchev: bets $96
joeyjoejr: raises $296 to $392

I was pretty sure he would bet after I check since everyone puts a 3-better on AA and I would C fold that flop that deep with AA. Also I have two kings so its harder for him to have K10. However I doubt he ever calls with worse or folds better. So its seems like not a great spot to raise. How would you proceed after the flop.
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 10:52pm   #2
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QxQx Xx Xx
8x Tx Xx Xx
Tx Kx Xx Xx

There isn't a tremendous range of hands that you are a significant dog to. Worst case scenario isn't the straight imo, rather the overset which has you drawing very thin indeed, but not something I would think is a particularly high risk (maybe 1 in 400 ish odds?)

I like the check raise.
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 11:19pm   #3
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Remember just because given that flop i'm probably winning it doesnt mean a check raise was best.
A check raise does get value from air that might bet but I he might fold like two pair where he might stack that off if I bet call.
C/C is a interesting line as well.

I'm really not sure what is best
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 11:20pm   #4
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If you were 100bb deep, this would be risky but not horrible. 150bb+ this is spew imo.

Are you planning to fold to a push? I doubt it, which means that you're probably better off just betting out pot and hoping he raise-bluffs you off your 'aaxx'. You'll get stacked slightly more often, but you will also get bluffed enough that you win more $ this way imo, given that you can't fold in either situation.

That said, if he's significantly less likely to raise-bluff the flop than just bet out bluff (which I don't see being the case if he's a LAG type), then I like bet pot/fold to a re-raise pot than either c/r or b/3b.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 11:24pm   #5
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Its seems we agree why my own play is bad
I like a bet call or c/c flop and turn
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 11:32pm   #6
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To be honest, I probably don't 3-bet preflop. I know that's my FR nittishness in part, but you're also in position with a decent hand but not a monster or super draw potential hand (ie. suited run down). You really aren't interested in creating a big pot though, since your hand is very hit/miss, and as you said, people love to play back at a 3-bettor at these stakes.
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Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Jun 28, 2008, 11:51pm   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
You really aren't interested in creating a big pot
I'm always interested in creating big pots...... lol

Yeah I sometimes just call preflop and sometimes repot it I think either is fine.

KKJJ is stronger than you might think though .... because I have double blockers to broadway and the JJ blocks a lot of other straights.... something to think about ... having JJ,1010, or 99 often make straights more difficult for a villian with a tigher range (he raised UTG).

If he 4-bets I snap fold.

By the way he folded this time but I still dont like my play on the flop.
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Old Jun 29, 2008, 12:03am   #8
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learned alot reading the replies. I am working up and through 25PLO to50PLO and this discussion has had alot of value for me.
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Old Jun 29, 2008, 12:42am   #9
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I don't think you have all that strong a hand. Granted, it's playable, but it's not as strong as say a suited aaxx with decent xx, or a rundown/wrap hand. I suppose some deception value exists if you sometimes raise, sometimes call - but preflop deception value is minimal in this kind of spot (except that you don't want to *only* rase hands like aaxx).


One way to think about hands is to isolate what you're holding in terms of two card combos - here, you have the equivalent of KJhh, KK and JJ. That's the problem with double-paired hands, especially ones that aren't double-suited. I much prefer the 3-bet with QJT9 or something like that, even though KKJJ is probably better in terms of the pure 'odds' of winning.

The QJT9 plays far better post-flop, in that it can flop both strong made hands and strong draws, and it can do both at the same time. KKJJ is very hit/miss - it rarely flops a solid draw (even the flush draw isn't a nut flush draw unless the ace hits - in which case your made hand potential is usually shot) and it can only really flop strong enough to go to show down if you flop a set.

I still like playing it, esp. in position, and i would have raised if I had limpers in front. I just don't like 3-betting a field with it, even short hand. You're going to end up in tough spots post-flop a lot more than with the rest of your 3-bet range, especially when in a tough game where people play back.

I realize jj is good for blocking some straights, but in tough games that's not really the issue. Blockers are mostly good for showdown value, they don't really affect your ability to see the showdown (which is based more on your dynamic hand value and the tendencies of your opponent).

You've read Hwang's plo book, right? Remember, we care more about hands that play strong multiple ways and have a good chance to be best at show down - but to be best at show down, your hand has to be solid enough that you can play it to showdown. Here you're going to get in a lot of trouble spots, where the result will often be that you either get the $ in behind, or you get bluffed out of the pot.

There's also a lot to be said in plo for spots where people don't except you to bet (as in, where you're last to act but weren't the raiser) - possibly more even than there is for the value of expecting people to check to you as the preflop aggressor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; Jun 29, 2008 at 12:46am.
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Old Jun 29, 2008, 1:10am   #10
joeyjoejoejr
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I agree that QJ109 >>> then KKJJ, I would three bet QJ109 more often there then KKJJ. QJ109 plays better and we still can rep AAxx.

I havent read the book (or any omaha book) I probably should (I have read about 7 holdem books)


I do think I know when to C-bet and when to C-fold enough that I can raise a more varied range out of position. But yeah I dont raise everytime in the BB with this. I would three bet this though just about every time with position.
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