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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:03pm   #1
SwoopAE
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Default Cash Game Adventure

So...

I want to find out whether i'm a winning player in online cash games. Basically, I beat 2/5 with a moderate winrate live and i'm +EV in pretty much any tournament (except maybe the weekly 1k online ones), but I want to put in some time to learn to beat online cash games, as they are significantly tougher than live for obvious reasons.

I've never put in volume in online NLHE cash games. If I get my net connection working tomorrow i'll have plenty of time over the next few months to devote to online poker for the first time in a while.

I'm massively overrolled for anything up to 1/2NL, suitably rolled for 2/4 although I don't think i'd be a winning player at 2/4 or above yet. I'd imagine i'd be a +1BB/100 player at 1/2 and slight losing player at 2/4 if I had to guess, the goal is to be beating 2/4NL online at a moderate winrate within a few months.

Last time I tried this I started at 1/2 and broke even for a few thousand hands then lost interest. This time i'll start off 4 tabling .25/.5 NL, where i'm at least 99% sure i'm a winning player. I'll move up after putting in a small but somewhat useful sample.

So anyway, my question is this; how many hands before my .25/.5 NLH sample is useful and I can move up to .5/1? Note that i'm after the absolute minimum, I don't want an exact accurate BB/hr winrate or anything, just enough to assure myself i'm beating the game. I'll play more hands when I move up a couple levels. So anyway, at .25/.5, what do you think? 2000 hands? 3000? 5000?

Pretty much making this thread as an incentive to play more cash games so that I can come here and update my progress every 500 hands.

Also, if anyone who beats 1/2NL+ online wants to rail some cash game sessions and go through some hands with me, i'll happily do the same for your tournament game.

Edit: This is probably better off in NL Cash Games, mods feel free to move it if you want

Last edited by SwoopAE; Jul 07, 2008 at 12:17pm.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:09pm   #2
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This screams about a challenge.

You should define clear goals and give us some odds

About hands: At least 20k hands at NL50. you play 5k Hands during a day or two 4tabeling.

At least 20k hands or beginning at NL100.

And 20k Hands is not much more meaningfull than 2k hands. So I can't get the point to play a few NL50 hands.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:11pm   #3
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No samplesize under 20K hands will give You nearlly a good shot at Your true winrate. However as a sample to evaluate some stats and hands and see wether You feel comfortable or not I guess 5-10K hands should be allright at the lowest level. As You say its not a question of bankroll and as I know You are also a live Cashgame player somewhat I am pretty sure You can move up to 0.5/1 pretty fast.

So yes I would say play 5-10K hands to get used to online Cashgame again and then move up to 0.5/1. Post some hands and stats to get feedback while doing this.

GL
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:44pm   #4
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Just as I read this post an interesting hand came up.

I started a couple hours ago and i'm nearing the 500 hand mark. 5k should take maybe a week to ten days i'd say if I play casually or more if I put in a few ull ays.

Full Tilt Poker Game #7121172409: Table Duval (deep) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 8:39:54 ET - 2008/07/07
Seat 1: bvcross ($101.85)
Seat 2: Distiple ($50)
Seat 3: uncutboy ($30.10)
Seat 4: SwoopAE ($117.20)
Seat 5: CUTTHROAT59 ($47.25)
Seat 6: Poningnnub ($45.50)
Seat 7: pimenman ($36)
Seat 8: CallMeIshmael ($50)
Seat 9: bazby ($50)
pimenman posts the small blind of $0.25
CallMeIshmael posts the big blind of $0.50
5 seconds left to act
bazby posts $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SwoopAE [Kh Ks]
bazby checks
bvcross raises to $2
Distiple folds
uncutboy folds
SwoopAE raises to $7
CUTTHROAT59 folds
Poningnnub folds
pimenman folds
CallMeIshmael folds
bazby folds
bvcross calls $5
*** FLOP *** [4h 3d 3h]
bvcross bets $94.85, and is all in
SwoopAE: wow
SwoopAE has 15 seconds left to act
SwoopAE has requested TIME
SwoopAE: will u show
SwoopAE folds
Uncalled bet of $94.85 returned to bvcross
bvcross mucks
bvcross wins the pot ($14.50)
SwoopAE: ok its yours
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.25 | Rake $0.75
Board: [4h 3d 3h]
Seat 1: bvcross collected ($14.50), mucked
Seat 2: Distiple didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: uncutboy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: SwoopAE folded on the Flop
Seat 5: CUTTHROAT59 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Poningnnub (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: pimenman (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: CallMeIshmael (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: bazby folded before the Flop

He usually has aces here, followed by Axhh right? Villain seems to be a solid TAG over ~100 hands, nothing particularly noteworthy about him.

I think it's aces more than queens or jacks. Probably a neutral EV call, maybe marginally -EV. Agree or disagree?

I'm up about 3 buyins so far nearing the 500 hand mark, feeling completely in control. Have won 2 out of 3 key pots so far.

Last edited by SwoopAE; Jul 07, 2008 at 12:47pm.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:46pm   #5
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Okay then, time for a challenge.

How much should I be up at .25/.5 NL after 5000 hands?

I'm up $163.10 after 466 hands so far. These players are pretty awful, about as bad as 2/3 players live, slightly worse than 2/5.

I don't have tracker software so i'm not really interested in a bet, more just a challenge (although i'd do a bet (winrate, not play mass hands based, obviously) if the terms were right.

Last edited by SwoopAE; Jul 07, 2008 at 12:52pm.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 12:54pm   #6
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Here's the first update

+164.65 after 500 hands

Continuing the 500-1000 hand stretch now.

I'm pretty happy playing 2 deep and 2 regular tables at the moment (bought in for 100BB on all four). Deep tables are loose and regular are nitty so far. I like it.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 1:02pm   #7
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LOL these people suck at extracting value. I've run into three sets so far, twice with top pair and once with 2 pair, all ~200BB deep and I haven't lost more than 40BB in any of the hands yet.

OMG I HAS A SET CHECK CALL CHECK CALL CHECK WTF WHY DIDNT HE BET
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 1:03pm   #8
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.

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Old Jul 07, 2008, 1:04pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
I think it's aces more than queens or jacks. Probably a neutral EV call, maybe marginally -EV. Agree or disagree?

I'm up about 3 buyins so far nearing the 500 hand mark, feeling completely in control. Have won 2 out of 3 key pots so far.
Thats tough. It can be Aces but also AhQh or something like that. I don't play FR and I know that the FR UTG+1 opening Range should be very tight, but does he know?

What I say is: Why did he open push Aces? That makes no sense.

But it is 200BB deep, so i fold it. but I take a note and hope he does something similar again.

For 100BB i call it all day.
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CMBurns hast du noch einen Termin frei, nachdem du Phill Ivey gecoached hast?
Ich will auch so eine Art Chuck Norris im Onlinepoker werden.
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Old Jul 07, 2008, 1:05pm   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
I don't have tracker software....
Why not? You are going to want it if you are planning to take cash games seriously.

I'd also fold the KK hand. Your 3-bet should signal a strong liklihood of KK/AA to him since most players at this level don't 3-bet much outside of that range. If he's doing this without AA or 44 you will get the money eventually but it has to be -ev if you haven't observed him do this before.

I think 5K will be enough to know you are beating the level since you should beat it for a significant BB/100.
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