THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum
Old Feb 27, 2009, 8:28pm   #21
TWLLM
100
 
TWLLM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,271
Reputation: 957
TWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to behold
Default

Before I post the HH, I was wondering if anyone wanted to give a shot at what the range of villain 2 is here, broadly speaking. As in, I know we don't have specific reads to narrow it down precisely, but generally speaking, what is the range? I know its a bit of an open question but there were some people on here who said they didn't hate the play with AK. Surely your range is heavily oriented to bluffs then, since you can barely beat a bluff (and are actually behind to a lot of bluffs).


Alternatively, putting yourself in the hero's shoes, if you think your opponent isn't all that strong, do you think you can move them off the hand or not? Assuming they're a standard TAG (not ridiculous or all over the map in their play), do you expect them to fold enough to justify the play? If not, is there any other reason for the shove?
__________________
If I were Vietnamese my name would be Kno Nguyen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; Feb 27, 2009 at 8:43pm.
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Feb 27, 2009, 8:58pm   #22
shendo
Doyle Look-alike
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 409
Reputation: 215
shendo has a spectacular aura aboutshendo has a spectacular aura aboutshendo has a spectacular aura about
Default

I know I take stabs at pots in Villain 2's situation with my small pockets that miss. A lot of people are laying down AA and KK nowadays, and you can pick off the AK's, AQ's, and JJ's almost all the time against the 'solid regular' with this exact play.

So what's his range?

Literally anything he'd call preflop with in this spot. You're repping specifically AA-QQ. He's repping KK+.

If he's got a pair JJ or lower, I think he has to fold. It's such an ugly spot for AK to bluff, that he can't put you on AK. Maybe at worst AKs, but I'd have to see you do something like this before before I call your reraise. As a one and done, I fold JJ or smaller. Flush draw with pair, or flush draw with two overs calls obviously as do sets. I didn't do the math on straight draws, but they'd act accordingly one would think.

But again, it comes back to who these people are, and how willing they are to surrender this pot postflop to a cbet.
shendo est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 27, 2009, 9:09pm   #23
TWLLM
100
 
TWLLM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,271
Reputation: 957
TWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shendo View Post
I know I take stabs at pots in Villain 2's situation with my small pockets that miss. A lot of people are laying down AA and KK nowadays, and you can pick off the AK's, AQ's, and JJ's almost all the time against the 'solid regular' with this exact play.

So what's his range?

Literally anything he'd call preflop with in this spot. You're repping specifically AA-QQ. He's repping KK+.

If he's got a pair JJ or lower, I think he has to fold. It's such an ugly spot for AK to bluff, that he can't put you on AK. Maybe at worst AKs, but I'd have to see you do something like this before before I call your reraise. As a one and done, I fold JJ or smaller. Flush draw with pair, or flush draw with two overs calls obviously as do sets. I didn't do the math on straight draws, but they'd act accordingly one would think.

But again, it comes back to who these people are, and how willing they are to surrender this pot postflop to a cbet.
So if you shove, its because (1) he's raising into a 3bet in a multiway pot with less than 9s, and all draws, and (2) you expect him to fold getting around 4 to 1 with pocket pairs/AK, and you're flipping against all draws? Is that the basic assumption you need to justify the play?

I'm just asking because it looks like you'd need to be against a bluff/fold a hell of a lot for this to work. Right? Especially since if he's 'bluffing' but has a draw, you're at best a flip, and if he's bluffing with a smaller pair and calls, you're a 70/30 dog, no? And that's not even counting the times where this is a set.
__________________
If I were Vietnamese my name would be Kno Nguyen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 28, 2009, 12:35am   #24
Got 6 Aces
Unprofessional
 
Got 6 Aces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Posts: 2,227
Reputation: 113
Got 6 Aces will become famous soon enoughGot 6 Aces will become famous soon enough
Default

I bet he has like KcQc and hits the queen and this is just some glorified bad beat thread.
__________________
www.myspace.com/got6aces
Got 6 Aces est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 3:04am   #25
rpark
Doyle Look-alike
 
rpark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GTA (Toronto Area)
Posts: 288
Reputation: 60
rpark will become famous soon enough
Default

Villan 2 has implied odds to call preflop with small PPs. I think Villan 2 hit a set or was trying to rep a set when he re-rasied on the flop.
rpark est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 8:59am   #26
Mr Beaks
Don't got it going on
 
Mr Beaks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Whiffing mega draws
Posts: 1,191
Reputation: 364
Mr Beaks is just really niceMr Beaks is just really niceMr Beaks is just really niceMr Beaks is just really nice
Default

I can't see any redeeming features to this play and I don't think TWLLM would play AK like this in this spot. Therefore my considered conclusion is that TWLLM is Villain 2 in this hand.
__________________
Sure you're weedy and you're kinda shy
But some girly out there must be needy for a weedy, shy guy
Mr Beaks est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 4:21pm   #27
TWLLM
100
 
TWLLM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,271
Reputation: 957
TWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beaks View Post
I can't see any redeeming features to this play and I don't think TWLLM would play AK like this in this spot. Therefore my considered conclusion is that TWLLM is Villain 2 in this hand.
THANK YOU. I can't believe it took this long for someone to come right out and say that.



Anyway, here is the HH. I had to post the hand in here so I could get honest opinion's of his play, since if I posted it in poker stories people would try to think of ANY reason why his play was correct (have to try to find that stupidity/luck don't exist, right?). Mostly I was trying to figure out if his play with AK made any sense, because I assumed AK would fold here.

Had I put him on an overpair, I would have just called the flop bet.

PokerStars Game #25392609781: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/02/26 21:02:13 ET
Table 'Pamina III' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: anti001 ($148.10 in chips)
Seat 2: Sgt.pepper73 ($227 in chips)
Seat 3: lydia12345 ($203.65 in chips)
Seat 4: OCVI2003 ($245 in chips)
Seat 5: edpsu92 ($25.30 in chips)
Seat 6: EurekaKid ($242.10 in chips)
Seat 7: DaMinkie ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 8: five12 ($303.35 in chips)
Seat 9: haraps ($204.90 in chips)
DaMinkie: posts small blind $1
five12: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OCVI2003 [Ac Jc]
haraps: folds
anti001: folds
Sgt.pepper73: folds
lydia12345: raises $6 to $8
OCVI2003: calls $8
edpsu92: folds
EurekaKid: folds
DaMinkie: folds
five12: raises $14 to $22
lydia12345: calls $14
OCVI2003: calls $14
*** FLOP *** [4c 7s 9c]
five12: bets $45
lydia12345: folds
OCVI2003: raises $73 to $118
five12: raises $163.35 to $281.35 and is all-in
OCVI2003: calls $105 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($58.35) returned to five12
*** TURN *** [4c 7s 9c] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [4c 7s 9c 4s] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
five12: shows [Ks Ad] (a pair of Fours)
OCVI2003: mucks hand
five12 collected $510 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $513 | Rake $3
Board [4c 7s 9c 4s 8s]
Seat 1: anti001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Sgt.pepper73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: lydia12345 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: OCVI2003 mucked [Ac Jc]
Seat 5: edpsu92 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: EurekaKid (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: DaMinkie (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: five12 (big blind) showed [Ks Ad] and won ($510) with a pair of Fours
Seat 9: haraps folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Here's how the hand went down from my perspective.

Preflop, I'm fine calling in position with AJs behind that raiser. He, like most of the table, is pretty predictable. The 3-bet was just too small for me not to call - my guess was that the hero had AK (which sucks for my hand if a naked ace hits) most of the time, because his 3-bet didn't fit with how someone would play AA/KK/QQ there. I find most of these players tend to 3-bet larger with 'monsters' they don't want to get 'sucked out on'.

Anyway, when the flop hit not only did I have a nut draw, I figured his bet size confirmed it was AK. I thought about shoving flop, but realized it might be best to represent a set by betting less than all-in. I was right he didn't have shit, but man I did *not* expect a naked AK to 3-bet allin.

In terms of his play, I think Gus said it best - under the circumstances it couldn't have been worse. I'd give him cudos if he'd make this push with, say, TT+. But with AK, most of my 'bluff' range is beating him! Not to mention my made hand range which may have him drawing dead. As it was he was just lucky to dodge 12 outs twice, and I was in just about the worst possible shape I could be against his hand - even if i had just 22 I was in far better shape.

Oh well. I run bad. What's new?

PS - to G6A, it's hardly a glorified bad beat post, because technically I was behind. It's more a "WTF ARE YOU DOING?!" post - I just wanted to confirm there was no way AK should be shoving here, and therefore that my play was reasonable given that I put him on AK.
__________________
If I were Vietnamese my name would be Kno Nguyen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; Mar 01, 2009 at 4:24pm.
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 6:31pm   #28
Gus
Professional
 
Gus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,753
Reputation: 346
Gus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the rough
Default

Haha you had to be all stealthy about this.
Man you have some deep mental poker issues or something.

First, of course it was a very bad play with AK, how can you think anyone would say otherwise.
Second, I really dont see how you can put him on AK anywhere in that hand... A weak 3bet OOP? AK ! Leading a medium flop 3 way in a reraised pot ? Ak obviously !

Theres a difference between trying to think of a hand you can beat and hoping he has it and putting him on a hand ;)

super results oriented thread/ badbeatish / fishy / whinning

I challenge you to post a real strategy hand, just once
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidcow View Post
crazy thing is is i win money lol. that should be a ray of hope for all newbies
Gus est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 6:32pm   #29
Gus
Professional
 
Gus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,753
Reputation: 346
Gus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the roughGus is a jewel in the rough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
It's more a "WTF ARE YOU DOING?!" post

Some mod should move that OP to poker stories
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidcow View Post
crazy thing is is i win money lol. that should be a ray of hope for all newbies
Gus est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 01, 2009, 6:45pm   #30
TWLLM
100
 
TWLLM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,271
Reputation: 957
TWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to behold
Default

How is this a bad beat? I was behind when the money went in. And its not a cooler since neither of us had anything.

I was able to put him on AK because in these games, no one would underraise AA/KK like that pf, and they would bet a lot bigger on the flop with an overpair - he's making a continuation bet because he feels he has to. I agree he won't *always* have AK, but I thought I could rule out AA/KK pretty easily, meaning there was a higher chance the bluff would work.

My point in posting this was to see if I was right that AK cannot profitably counter my 'move' given what the range of hands is that I raise the flop with. It served its purpose for that. How it was 'results oriented' I don't know, since obviously EVERYTHING up until I posted the hand history was about whether there is any reason for him to shove. And I wanted to know if he can shove because my play only has value if I can force out most of his hands.

Sorry this wasn't just a standard "I want to make move x, is that ok" post.
__________________
If I were Vietnamese my name would be Kno Nguyen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:30am. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.