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Old Mar 02, 2009, 9:03pm   #51
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 9:03pm   #52
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After reading this whole thread, I died a little inside.
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 9:23pm   #53
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So would you raise the flop here with any two cards shendo?
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 10:42pm   #54
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If I call flop, its not to fold on any agression on the turn, execpt if I really think he wont 2barrel ever, because then you look semi weak like 8s or something when you call

Ill find a fold on As and Ks but you should decide what you will do on turn before calling flop obviously
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Old Mar 03, 2009, 12:23am   #55
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Originally Posted by WaxHaX0rS View Post
So would you raise the flop here with any two cards shendo?
Its a play. As I've said, the squeeze play is getting a ton of use recently. Especially from the Big Blind. And a cbet is very standard from most squeezers in this spot. Depending on villain, you can see the whole range of hands here. From AA to 54s. Take a look at Red4eva's preflop 4bet bluff thread. Things are getting potentially weird preflop in a lot of circumstances.

You combine that with the huge amount of respect flop raises are getting, I think its definitely something to consider with any two cards. Certainly not often, but I think stepping out of the generic book of poker, and throwing some real aggression at a big pot from time to time is necessary when in regularville. The board may be a little too drawy, and the pot a little too big in this spot to feel you can fold out any real hands here. But if the BB was making a play preflop, you making a play postflop should take down the pot. And don't kid yourselves. Even AA is not a happy camper faced with that raise. Everyone is setmining, and the raise is so strong, especially from a guy who called twice preflop, that depending on who you are, you might even fold out the overpair.

The catch with JJ of course is that you might actually have the best hand. As Gus said, you have to have a plan. If you think this is a bluff picker, and you feel good about calling the turn and river. Sure, that's the way to go. And if you think maybe they'll check it down, by all means. But there are times when I'm just not feeling that, and get tired of folding a decent hand on the turn after donating a pot sized bet on the flop. But at the same time, not feeling great about folding a decent hand on the flop either. I'm not really advocating any play generically speaking, I'm just trying to rationalize the options, and see if I feel things can work in different scenarios. I don't like any of the options with JJ. That's why I think its a useful thread. When you don't want to do anything, its usually a good place to really look into it.

Its fun on the internets to say wat? and sigh! and such. Everyone knows the key to elite poker is low content condescending posts in strategy threads.

But for a reality check, all you have to do is look over at the ssnl regular threads over on 2+2 where the 'top players' are all raking in .67 bb/100. The days of being able to write off thinking about more complicated plays, big folds, and crazy scenarios is over. There is so much being done right, that its changing what's right. I'm certainly not out there firing huge bluffs in 3bet pots every hour I play. But I recognize that if someone thinks I will 'never do X', I certainly look for the odd spot where I can do X profitably based on their assumption I wouldn't. Even if its only once every 10,000 hands because the margins are getting thin, and the luxury of being dismissive to the idea of things that have been previously written off imo, no longer exists.
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Old Mar 03, 2009, 12:38am   #56
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Originally Posted by shendo View Post
Its a play. As I've said, the squeeze play is getting a ton of use recently. Especially from the Big Blind. And a cbet is very standard from most squeezers in this spot. Depending on villain, you can see the whole range of hands here. From AA to 54s. Take a look at Red4eva's preflop 4bet bluff thread. Things are getting potentially weird preflop in a lot of circumstances.

You combine that with the huge amount of respect flop raises are getting, I think its definitely something to consider with any two cards. Certainly not often, but I think stepping out of the generic book of poker, and throwing some real aggression at a big pot from time to time is necessary when in regularville. The board may be a little too drawy, and the pot a little too big in this spot to feel you can fold out any real hands here. But if the BB was making a play preflop, you making a play postflop should take down the pot. And don't kid yourselves. Even AA is not a happy camper faced with that raise. Everyone is setmining, and the raise is so strong, especially from a guy who called twice preflop, that depending on who you are, you might even fold out the overpair.

The catch with JJ of course is that you might actually have the best hand. As Gus said, you have to have a plan. If you think this is a bluff picker, and you feel good about calling the turn and river. Sure, that's the way to go. And if you think maybe they'll check it down, by all means. But there are times when I'm just not feeling that, and get tired of folding a decent hand on the turn after donating a pot sized bet on the flop. But at the same time, not feeling great about folding a decent hand on the flop either. I'm not really advocating any play generically speaking, I'm just trying to rationalize the options, and see if I feel things can work in different scenarios. I don't like any of the options with JJ. That's why I think its a useful thread. When you don't want to do anything, its usually a good place to really look into it.

Its fun on the internets to say wat? and sigh! and such. Everyone knows the key to elite poker is low content condescending posts in strategy threads.

But for a reality check, all you have to do is look over at the ssnl regular threads over on 2+2 where the 'top players' are all raking in .67 bb/100. The days of being able to write off thinking about more complicated plays, big folds, and crazy scenarios is over. There is so much being done right, that its changing what's right. I'm certainly not out there firing huge bluffs in 3bet pots every hour I play. But I recognize that if someone thinks I will 'never do X', I certainly look for the odd spot where I can do X profitably based on their assumption I wouldn't. Even if its only once every 10,000 hands because the margins are getting thin, and the luxury of being dismissive to the idea of things that have been previously written off imo, no longer exists.
all im saying is i would much rather fold JJ to a turn or river barrel than to raise this flop and fold to a 3bet.
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Old Mar 03, 2009, 8:06am   #57
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or to raise for some reasons like reads or game flow, but hes not folding after ever

Raising flop with JJ isnt atrocious by itself its raise folding thats bad because youre turning your overpair into a bluff in a reraised pot

Shendo you seem to really get out of your way to not understand Red4 when its pppppretty obvious what hes trying to say... I agree that arguing for nothing is fun once in a while but Im sure you 2 could pick a more interesting spot

Most of the time, just like 4betting PF, most good players will have a pretty polarized range when the raise the flop here. 100% bluff, rare of course, draws and monsters. Not top pair or a weak overpair because they are bluff catchers. So you call with these if you want to catch a bluff or you fold because you think hes not bluffing... easy
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If I call flop, its not to fold on any agression on the turn, execpt if I really think he wont 2barrel ever, because then you look semi weak like 8s or something when you call

Ill find a fold on As and Ks but you should decide what you will do on turn before calling flop obviously
Again, as always Gus, I value your contributions to strategy threads because they're generally very good. I would, however, like to point out (1) the irony of these posts in light of your attack at the very existence of this thread in the first place as being pointless, and (2) how funny it is that the there is as much or more discussion in the thread now, than there was before I posted the HH. If the thread was truly pointless or 'just a bad beat post' I doubt we'd have this much discussion over one hand. And a FR hand no less!

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I thought it was a useful discussion. Certainly not the usual "I 3b AK and get 4b AI......should I call?" kind of thread and at least showed some innovation in how the problem was presented.

Of course what we could do is just sit around beating up on anyone who posts a hand history and see if that encourages more engagement and useful debate
TY for the support. Before everyone re-opened discussion in this thread, I thought I was the only one who actually saw that there was something to be talked about. I'm also glad someone else is tired of reading nothing more than "X is Y. Y is Z. Is Z, W, such that I should do Z?"

This was also a hand where I couldn't just post it and say 'what does everyone think' because I didn't really need to know whether my raise was reasonable, except in terms of whether someone can ever reasonably re-shove with AK against me. I was pretty sure in my read of what his most likely hand was, and despite what has been suggested here (by Gus in particular, unfortunately, as I usually agree with the substance of his comments) I would *not* have raised here if I was just 'hoping' he had AK. If I thought he often had an overpair here, I probably just call because he's going to have a tough time shoving a lot of turns, and if he does shove, I'm crushed and can safely fold anyway.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

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