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Old Oct 15, 2009, 7:13pm   #1
JoshuaSit
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Default Hey guys, trying to understand preflop pot odds

Sup guys

So I'm studying 'A Comedy Of Errors' SnG ebook. There talking a lot about preflop pot odds.

I'm pretty much getting the drift. Ex. the pot is 300 and the bet to me is 60. My odds are 5 to 1.

There is a section About cold calling Raises in multi-way pots in low stake SnG's. How it's not a good idea. I completely understand why. It says an exception is when holding a middle to high pair, bu to make sure you have 12 to 1 odds on at least one opponent. So whats that mean? If my stack is 4800, then one opponents stack should be 400?

Or am I missing the point here?

Thanks Guys
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Old Oct 15, 2009, 7:30pm   #2
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12:1 is related to the odds of flopping a set. If you are set-mining, it doesn't have to be a middle to high pair -- even a set of deuces is going to do great getting it in on most flops.

Back to your main question, it means that if the bet is 400, you and your opponent's stacks should be at least 4800 to make flatting there hoping to flop a set profitable (this is called "implied odds"). But depending on the blinds, antes, number of players left and payout structure, there may be much better plays as well.
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Old Oct 15, 2009, 8:56pm   #3
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If you have 2d2c, and a 2 comes on the flop, you will probably have the best hand. The problem is that a 2 comes on the flop 1 out of 8 times or so. And when it doesn't come, you will have to fold.

So for a call to be profitable preflop, you have to make at least an average of 8 times what you called when you hit a 3rd 2 on the flop.

So if you call 400 preflop, you have to make 3200 total of other players chips when you hit your 2. If you were up against one opponent, and they only had 1000 chips, you aren't going to be able to get to 3200. And sometimes you will hit your 2, and they won't give you all their chips. So even though they have 10,000 chips, you might only win 1000.

So they suggest having an opponent with 12x the bet (4800) (you have to have this amount too), so that you can feel good about averaging a profit of at least 3200 each time you flop a set, and making the hand profitable on average.
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Old Oct 15, 2009, 9:22pm   #4
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Default Implied odds

Ok, so let's pose a situation here and tell me if my cold call would be Ok


Blinds 100/200

UTG: Stack: 5,800 Raises 600
UTG+1:Stack: 2,000 folds
UTG+2:Stack: 8,000 calls
UTG+3:stack: 3,000 calls
UTG+4Stack: 500 All-in
CO: Me hole cards 99 10,000 calls
BU: Stack:3,000 folds
SB: Stack 11,000 folds
BB: Stack 5,000 calls 400

OK the pot is 3600

I have 17to1 implied odds and a little over 4/1 pot odds because when the bet comes to me there the pot is 2600 and i need 600 to call.

Am I correct? I just want to grasp everything I'm reading to the "T"


OK this next part is separate , but on the same level I will paste it in so there is nothing lost in translation..

Just want to know exacly what they are talking about here........


I'm going to copy and paste this particular part below. Where it says "make sure you have 12-to-1 odds from at least one opponent"

So make sure at least one opponents stacks is 12-to-1? Is this for value?




Early Stage Error #2 – Cold Calling Raises, Especially In Multi-Way Pots
This is a horrible play that you will see often in SNGs and is in the same group as error #1 above.
Someone raises 3 or 4 times the Big Blind and – boom – 4 people call. The question to ask here is
‘With what hands would it be correct to cold-call a raise in a multi-way pot?’ We go through some
candidates in the list below:
- Small / Medium Pairs Might Fit The Bill? If the raise is more than 10% of your (or biggest
stacked opponents) stack then this is a negative expectation play. Remember you not only
need to make the set – but also to get all of someone’s chips too… this is not going to happen
every time. In fact the rule of thumb to use here is make sure you have 12-to-1 odds from at
least one opponent (do not count with 2 opponents stacks together as it is very rare indeed to
stack 2 people at once).
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Old Oct 15, 2009, 9:24pm   #5
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Default shendo

I was writing my reply when you posted yours, not sure if you covered it. I gotta run for now, but thanks for responding

I will go over it after I pick Up my beautiful, Fiancee'
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:38am   #6
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Implied odds are what you expect to win on average if you hit your hand when it is all said and done.

I believe your 17-1 is calculating the perfect scenario where you hit your hand, and this guy goes allin with you, and your hand holds up. Sometimes he won't go allin, and sometimes your hand loses, so 17-1 isn't 'implied odds'.

"So make sure at least one opponents stacks is 12-to-1?"

This is where the 17-1 comes in. Its not really any type of odds. Just an easier way to show how big their stack is. The author is thinking if the opponents stack is 12 times the bet, then you will probably be able to win 8 times the bet on average when you make your set.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 6:15am   #7
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Well, it's 8:1 that you flop a set, but most people recommend stack depths of 12:1 or 15:1 or whatever to set-mine profitably, so it seems logical to assume that there are implied odds built into it (implied odds are basically counting percentages of your opponent's stack into the pot odds based upon the likelihood of their paying you off on a later street), though some of it's just the times you're beaten anyway/opponent has nothing. Eh, this is probably over-complicating things and you can ignore it.

But, yeah, if you can assume that IF you hit a set you will always win, then 8:1 is your immediate odds.

Reading the paragraph you posted, please be careful not to take from it the idea that you should always call with your PP getting 10 or 12 to 1. There is going to be a better play pretty often. Tournaments are much more about your equity in the prize pool than they are about your individual hands. Make the play that best protects and grows your equity in the prize pool, and you will do well.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:11pm   #8
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Originally Posted by JoshuaSit View Post
I will go over it after I pick Up my beautiful, Fiancee'
pictures plz
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:52pm   #9
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Default Ok

Ok, I got it, Do any of you guys take this into effect when deciding whether to cold call a PP in a multi-ay pot.

Am I correct on 4/1 pot odds here?

I just wanna know how important this is
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 1:10pm   #10
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Yes, this is very important stuff. I recommend you copy shendo's post to a post-it, stick it to your monitor and read it every time before you play a tournament.

Flatcalling with low pockets without proper odds is one of the most widespread errors at low stakes tourneys. Don't be one of those guys.
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