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Old Oct 19, 2009, 8:39am   #11
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by WaxHaX0rS View Post
edit after a little more thought:

TT has almost 60% equity vs a range of AK, 22+ (which is pretty nitty). It is not horrible spew imo. Whether it is optimal is an entirely different question. It is less than optimal because he will play fit or fold post with his pp's and Ace highs, fold some of his Ace highs and KQ hands which would have cbet, and 4bet stuff like AK which he will win outright since we will have to fold.
I think spew is perfectly apt if you recognise that throwing away value is the same as throwing away chips, but we can reserve the term for the latter if you like. Perhaps "fucking retarded" is more appropriate.

There are really no reasons to reraise TT against a standard utg range. You're going to win a decent number of 5BB pots, but you throw away the opportunity to flop a set and stack his overpair.

Kc
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 10:01am   #12
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by VADERPOWER View Post
shit, this explains alot about my game ive got more leaks than the friggin titantic. so we r basically treating these tens like 4s or 5s and set mining?
You aren't simply set mining here, you're playing against a range of, more or less, any pair, AJo+, ATs+, KQs/o, maybe KJs and suited connectors from about 98s up. Obviously, TT is in better shape against that range than 44, and situations will arise where TT can correctly continue in the hand where 44 can't.

I will now wander off on the kind of tangents we've all come to know and love.

The UTG position gets very little respect in the modern game. While UTG doesn't suffer the same magnitude of positional disadvantage at a 6 handed table as it does at a 9 handed table, the disadvantage is still far greater than most people realise.

It's not that there is a "correct" way to play from or against UTG, because the seat is less important than the player occupying it. If this particular UTG player raises 20% of his hands there, play him like he's raising 20% of his hands. If he raises 8% of his hands, play him like he raises 8% of his hands. If you raise UTG and get reraised by a player who understands position and respects the tightness of your UTG range, play accordingly. If you get reraised by someone who doesn't appreciate position and threebets because he has a hand worth threebetting from the button rather than a hand worth threebetting against utg, again, play accordingly.

Here is something kooky. If UTG and the reraiser both recognise each other as being good players who understand position and range, then when UTG raises to 3.5BB and gets reraised to 11BB, he's going to fold about half his range. He'll fourbet with the top fifth and will call with the remaining 30% or so. 50% of the time you the reraiser win 5 BB and 20% of the time you lose 11 BB (net win). The remaining 30% of the time you'll play a flop in position against a well defined range and need shooting if you can't show a profit there. Regardez vous le sledge'ammer du position *thwomp*.

TT and 44 have exactly the same fold equity in this situation, and neither can continue facing a fourbet. However TT flops much better against his complete range than 44 does. Therefore, if you are going to reraise with one of these hands, it's better to reraise with 44 than TT.

But aha, the little voices chirrup in unison, 44 still has flop potential, surely you're better off taking something totally spastic like 63o and threebetting that than wasting a hand like 44?

Correct, welcome to poker.

Of course if you start threebetting light against my UTG raise with any regularity, you're going to get fourbet far more than 20% of the time and checkraised all in on the flop surprisingly often.

Kc
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 3:14pm   #13
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Re op: I think you can easily raise this flop and feel good about yourself. Not that it's necessary. Letting him fire 3 bullets, and picking off his aggro bluffs is fine too. But on the topic of raising:

"For information" always sounds bad, because it sounds like you are just throwing money away for information.

I like to think of it as 'so I don't have to fold the winner later, and if I happen to have the best hand, I'm not letting him see the turn cheap, and maybe I'll just take down a pot now without having to worry about any of this nonsense, and avoid getting ass pounded by AA while we are at it.'

AK has 6 outs. That's not too scary. But there are up to 16 overcards that can drop on your head, and an aggro guy who likes to keep firing will probably keep firing until you give him a reason not to. Then there are the hearts. And the board pairing probably isn't thrilling.

The guy is 21/17 with 5+ agg? He's opening utg with the kitchen sink. So I'm not buying into the premise that UTG (which 6handed is CO+2 which seems a lot less scarier) is coming at you with a ton of strength.
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 9:11pm   #14
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Some reasons to like 3betting TT.

22-99 is a big part of the range of a mid position raiser who is opening the betting. They are also calling a 3bet. They are also missing most flops. So TT is going to be winning a lot of hands for 11-12 bets just by 3bet/Cbet.

Conversely, if you call, and the overs come, they will probably represent the overs. If you 3bet and the overs come, you will probably represent the overs.

That right there is the difference between -3.5bb and +12.5bb, for a 16bb advantage.

If they are predictable 4betters, you probably lose your chance to set mine AA and KK. But I think having first dibs on a 3bet pot the 80% of the time they don't have AA/KK probably outweighs the times you are forced to fold instead of setmine with TT.

In regards to 44 vs. 63o.

There are 3 chances to win when you 3bet. They fold preflop. They fold to your cbet. You have the best hand at showdown.

44 hits 1 in 8ish times. When it does, you have a hand that is 100% happy to be allin. 63o hits severely less often. So there is a lot less chance that the large pot you are building will be won at showdown.

3betting a small pair preflop is sort of like a semi-bluff.
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 11:10pm   #15
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good posts shendo, why would we want to let villan catchup if we put him on overs? a good reason to raise the flop here. on the otherhand, i see kc s point about value and and stacking someone. good thread guys
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 11:54pm   #16
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Originally Posted by shendo View Post
Some reasons to like 3betting TT.

22-99 is a big part of the range of a mid position raiser who is opening the betting. They are also calling a 3bet.
They might but they shouldn't. Small pairs do not fair well in threebet pots. The implied odds vanish.

Anyway we aren't talking about a midposition raiser, we're talking about an UTG raiser.

Quote:
That right there is the difference between -3.5bb and +12.5bb, for a 16bb advantage.
huh?

Quote:
44 hits 1 in 8ish times. When it does, you have a hand that is 100% happy to be allin. 63o hits severely less often. So there is a lot less chance that the large pot you are building will be won at showdown.
I'm not getting to showdown, I'm playing a flop 30% of the time against a well defined range and stealing when that range doesn't connect because I've represented strength.

Quote:
3betting a small pair preflop is sort of like a semi-bluff.
Urgh.

Kc
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 11:57pm   #17
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good posts shendo, why would we want to let villan catchup if we put him on overs?
Because the objective isn't to win the pot, it's to win money.

Do not threebet TT against UTG unless he's a spoon.

Kc
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:22am   #18
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Originally Posted by shendo View Post
Some reasons to like 3betting TT.

22-99 is a big part of the range of a mid position raiser who is opening the betting. They are also calling a 3bet. They are also missing most flops. So TT is going to be winning a lot of hands for 11-12 bets just by 3bet/Cbet.
if villain is terribad, dont 3b here unless your willing to 5b shove.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:22am   #19
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greaat point kc, to nuch tournement poker thinking on my part. i.e win lots of pots.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:45am   #20
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
They might but they shouldn't. Small pairs do not fair well in threebet pots. The implied odds vanish.

Anyway we aren't talking about a midposition raiser, we're talking about an UTG raiser.

huh?
I view position based on the button, because how many people are left to act strikes me as the relevant factor of position. There is no early position in 6handed, just like there is no middle position in 4 handed poker, and nobody would attribute great strength to a raiser in headsup poker because they were 'under the gun'.

I agree that small pairs play poorly in 3bet pots. A significant portion of the population is not interested in our take on small pairs in 3bet pots. The guy in this scenario who is buying in for 40 at a 50nl table is almost certainly one of them.

Quote:
I'm not getting to showdown, I'm playing a flop 30% of the time against a well defined range and stealing when that range doesn't connect because I've represented strength.

Kc
Right. Except when you do connect, and their range also connects you stack them. Vs. 63o where that scenario is much more infrequent. Lets say 1 out of every 4 times they hit while you hit your set. So that's 1 out of every 32 flops or so, which is once every 100 44's you 3bet. A stack every 100 hands is a big deal.

3betting with 63o is running a bluff, because you are just looking for them to fold. 44 is obviously different because it has big hand possibilities on the flop. Obviously its not referred to as a 'semi-bluff', but there are similar aspects.
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