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Old Oct 20, 2009, 1:03am   #21
shendo
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That right there is the difference between -3.5bb and +12.5bb, for a 16bb advantage.
Villain raises 3.5bb with 33. We flat with TT. Flop comes AJ5. Villain leads out. We fold. (-3.5bb)

Villain raises 3.5bb with 33. We 3bet to 11 with TT. Flop comes AJ5. Villain checks. We bet. Villain folds. (+12.5bb)

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why would we want to let villan catchup if we put him on overs?
Its not about keeping them from catching up, its about being in control. The guy who puts in the last raise preflop usually wins the pot. I want that to be me. On top of which, two overs are only hitting 35% of the time? And a pair is only hitting 12% of the time. That means they are probably folding 65%-85% of the time. Building a pot for me to take down on the flop is an easy way to bring in the cash.

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if villain is terribad, dont 3b here unless your willing to 5b shove.
There are plenty of breakeven to slightly losing and bad players who will call a lot of 3bets with small pairs/and avg. overcards who aren't going to 4bet unless they have AA or KK.

Last edited by shendo; Oct 20, 2009 at 1:05am.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 1:26am   #22
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It should also be noted that I'm not disagreeing with how KC is saying how to play the hand as we're dealing with a fairly vague generic scenario, and a perfect way to play a generic scenario doesn't really exist, as he routinely points out the details make the hand. And we aren't supplying details at this point. I'm just presenting an alternative with the appropriate rationale.

I'm fairly certain you can both raise and call with TT. In various circumstances vs. various opponents both have merit.

The stronger the raise, the more I would lean towards calling.

The more the opponent cbets, the more I lean towards raising.

The more they call 3bets, the more I lean towards raising.

The easier they stack off, the more I lean towards calling.

The more they 4bet, the more I lean towards calling.

etc...and even those are subject to finer tuning.

The point being that there are factors that make each option more and less profitable. And you want to weigh the costs and benefits to get the best result.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 1:32am   #23
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Originally Posted by shendo View Post
I view position based on the button, because how many people are left to act strikes me as the relevant factor of position.
An extremely superficial interpretation of position.

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There is no early position in 6handed
I draw your attention to rule iv.

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just like there is no middle position in 4 handed poker
Early, middle and late are comparative terms, they are not absolute. They are labels, not dictats.

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and nobody would attribute great strength to a raiser in headsup poker because they were 'under the gun'.
A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles.

"While UTG doesn't suffer the same magnitude of positional disadvantage at a 6 handed table as it does at a 9 handed table, the disadvantage is still far greater than most people realise."

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Right. Except when you do connect, and their range also connects you stack them.
And how does threebetting change this?

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Vs. 63o where that scenario is much more infrequent.
Again, I'm not trying to stack you with 63, I'm trying to stack you with TT and 44. I'm stealing the pot with 63, and I'm not wasting a hand that has stacking potential by turning it into a steal.

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3betting with 63o is running a bluff, because you are just looking for them to fold.
*gold star*

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44 is obviously different because it has big hand possibilities on the flop.
Correct. So why do you want to reraise and deny yourself the opportunity to hit that set and stack someone?

If anything, you make it less likely that you're going to stack your opponent, because you pull all the hands out of his range that will stack off blind. Instead of getting all in against a hand that has 2 outs to a bigger set, you're going to be getting all in against combination draws that have 9-15 outs against you.

Kc
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:02am   #24
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Re labeling position: If you do it in regards to the button, it applies to any number of players in the game. If you do it based on first to act, it becomes relative. I prefer a descriptive system that accurately translates across the entire spectrum instead of being forced to add vague quantifiers after my statement of UTG.

Early, middle, and late are easily and often defined statically. You are using them comparatively for unknown reasons.

This is a boring semantic argument however, so blah blah blah.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:15am   #25
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This is a boring semantic argument however, so blah blah blah.
This was kinda my point. Everything you've said about position suggests that you think it's about how we label the seats.

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:43am   #26
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In a discussion over how to label positions, you will find a very large portion of my posts will revolve around labeling positions.

Its this weird habit I have.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:51am   #27
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In a discussion over how to label positions, you will find a very large portion of my posts will revolve around labeling positions.
Right, but we weren't having that discussion.

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:21am   #28
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Quote: Right. Except when you do connect, and their range also connects you stack them.
And how does threebetting change this?

A 25bb pot on the flop results in an allin situation significantly easier than a 9bb pot. Someone flats your raise preflop, then they start firing massive raises, unless you are the spoon you were talking about earlier, people aren't happily handing over all their money anymore.

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44 is obviously different because it has big hand possibilities on the flop.
Correct. So why do you want to reraise and deny yourself the opportunity to hit that set and stack someone?

If anything, you make it less likely that you're going to stack your opponent, because you pull all the hands out of his range that will stack off blind. Instead of getting all in against a hand that has 2 outs to a bigger set, you're going to be getting all in against combination draws that have 9-15 outs against you.

Kc

I think you are relying on AA-QQ showing up as a larger % than I am. I just don't buy that UTG in a six handed game is raising as tightly as you are saying they are. I'm sure some people are, but not in general in the stakes being talked about here, and more particularly, not this villain. And if I'm correct, then you aren't really denying the opportunity to hit and stack someone, because that opportunity rarely really exists. They aren't stacking KJs just because you hit a set.

Its great stacking AA, but at the same time, you are losing 3.5bb a shitload of times. Whereas if you 3bet, you usually don't get to stack AA or KK, but you take down a lot of 5bb and 12bb pots, and still stacking some people, and probably stacking two big cards more often. Its going to be a lot easier to stack AQ on a QT4 flop in a 3bet pot than it is when you just call for example.

Of course now we've reached the point where we've laid out the circumstances, and it becomes a math question. Based on all the variables, when is it more profitable to try and setmine vs. take the value of the 3bet play.

Again, I suspect various villains lead to various results. But that your characterization of generic villain aren't really in line with the reality of the stakes being discussed here.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:31am   #29
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Reraising TT against an utg raiser is horribly spewy, for the benefit of whoever suggested it. - You
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So I'm not buying into the premise that UTG (which 6handed is CO+2 which seems a lot less scarier) is coming at you with a ton of strength.-Me
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22-99 is a big part of the range of a mid position raiser who is opening the betting.-me
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Anyway we aren't talking about a midposition raiser, we're talking about an UTG raiser. - you
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I view position based on the button, because how many people are left to act strikes me as the relevant factor of position.-me
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Early, middle and late are comparative terms, they are not absolute. They are labels, not dictates.-you
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Re labeling position: If you do it in regards to the button, it applies to any number of players in the game.-me
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In a discussion over how to label positions, you will find a very large portion of my posts will revolve around labeling positions.-me
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Right, but we weren't having that discussion.-you
We had a meaningful disagreement on the strength of this guys raise based on his position right off the bat, which is likely the source of our differing opinions on how to respond to it. That was immediately glossed over in favor of nonsense semantics of course. As this is the Internets, and resistance is futile.

Last edited by shendo; Oct 20, 2009 at 4:34am.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 5:26am   #30
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Originally Posted by shendo View Post
A 25bb pot on the flop results in an allin situation significantly easier than a 9bb pot. Someone flats your raise preflop, then they start firing massive raises, unless you are the spoon you were talking about earlier, people aren't happily handing over all their money anymore.
Longer implied odds are better than shorter implied odds. One of the nice things about getting to the flop for a single raise is that you don't necessarilly have to stack your opponent. You just have to get paid enough to make your initial investment profitable.

I already said this but it bears repeating, when we play back against UTG we narrow his range unfavourably. We aren't getting flops against big pocket pairs. We aren't going to ever be in the position where he stacks off with 2 outs. The times we do get all in, he's going to be showing up with big draws and decent equity.

Perhaps your experience differs from mine, but I find it harder to get paid off with sets in threebet pots. People are much more careful there, you get paid off much less often.

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I think you are relying on AA-QQ showing up as a larger % than I am. I just don't buy that UTG in a six handed game is raising as tightly as you are saying they are.


I sa...oh fuck you and your assinine green fucking text. how do i get rid of this? All these stupid fucking icons that don't mean a damn thing unless you're 12 years old...
is this it? seems to be. disco. I said earlier in the thread that you should treat a 20% raiser as a 20% raiser and an 8% raiser as an 8% raiser. In fact the first thing I said in this thread was "does he appreciate position, how wide is his range?". I established the exact range of the player I was describing, a standard 12.5% utg range. We can discuss how to play against the fish who don't understand position if you like, but who needs to?

You made the assumption that a 17% pfr means he's opening wide under the gun. This is an incredibly dangerous assumption. Some 17% raisers open 17% of their hands everywhere, some open as tight as 10% utg and as wide as 30-35% on the button.

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Its great stacking AA, but at the same time, you are losing 3.5bb a shitload of times. Whereas if you 3bet, you usually don't get to stack AA or KK, but you take down a lot of 5bb and 12bb pots, and still stacking some people, and probably stacking two big cards more often. Its going to be a lot easier to stack AQ on a QT4 flop in a 3bet pot than it is when you just call for example.


I think we're getting a more than adequate return on our investment on that flop if we flat call preflop.

Other considerations; flatting allows someone else to come into the pot and improve our implied odds. We miss the flop 88% of the time and are obliged to dry bluff cbet, here 44 is only fractionally better than 63 because he might check down with a busted, unpaired draw if he didn't stack off with it on the flop. 63 has the same amount of fold equity on the flop as 44.

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Of course now we've reached the point where we've laid out the circumstances, and it becomes a math question. Based on all the variables, when is it more profitable to try and setmine vs. take the value of the 3bet play.


That's easy. set mine with hands that can make sets, and make the threebet play with (i) hands that aren't good enough to play anyway, since the value in that play comes from taking the pot down, not from hitting and (ii) the hands that flop megadraws.

If someone can produce evidence that reraising 44 is a good idea, I'll listen.

Kc
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