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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:10am   #1
Banalanal
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Default Shove v. Squeeze

Talking in generalities. 100 bb stacks.
I raise 88 from mp, loose player calls from btn, tag with a tendency to squeeze frequently does so from the blinds.

Normally Ill fold here, however, against his squeeze and calling range (1010+, AQ+) can it ever be correct to fold 88 in this situation (given the dead money and the times I fold out his junk hands he's squeeze folding)? Obviously not calling, shoving is the option.

Hand 0: 62.658% 62.46% 00.19% 397880364 1236678.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 37.342% 37.15% 00.19% 236623368 1236678.00 { 88 }

Then I was thinking, given that range, 88 is effectively 22, doesn't it makes sense to push all pp's in that situation assuming the villain doesn't know we're pushing any pp and that the loose player is always folding?

Get what I'm saying?

Think I will reevaluate my shove range v. loose squeezers...

Obviously there are more variables and player tendencies, histories, metagames, etc., but I'm speaking in generalities.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:47am   #2
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not every squeeze villain makes is going to be for value, his range is going to be more polarized. not sure about the shoving any PP thing, seems spewy cause you allow him to play perfectly. if hes not horrible and hes 3betting TT and AQ at the bottom of his value range he shouldnt fold to your 4b shove. so you allow him to fold all his trash hands and only call with his value hands that have you crushed.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:06am   #3
Banalanal
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I was taking this into the equation. Obviously if we play against this opponent all the time and he knows we will shove any pp, it won't work.

Our pp against the range that I assigned him in which he will call our 4bet/shove is 1010+ and Aq+. Our pp is about 60/40 underdog. However we also get to fold out all his squeeze bluffs and pick up the dead money.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:20am   #4
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Shoving on the 4bet? isn't that a ridiculous overbet?

Your standard open is 4BB right? 4 from the caller, squeezer makes it 16, 12 more from you so the pot is 36 and you have 84 back 7/3 of the pot fourbet?

You aren't fourbet shoving AA KK QQ and AK surely? So he can take those out of your range...42%...This is going to end badly.

You don't have to fourbet shove, you can combat these squeezers by making measured 4bets occasionally with hands that aren't good enough to take flops. This is particularly useful against players with a high threebet from the blinds % and a high fold to threebet %, but your standard line is still to fold, you don't want to bring the bullshit fourbet out too often.

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:32am   #5
Banalanal
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Fair enough on the overbet. However, the idea is the same. Against his squeeze range, my 88's aren't losing money, given sometimes he is bluff squeezing and will fold and my 4bet (not a shove) gets the dead money, and assuming his pushing range is what was mentioned.

Obviously he could call screwing it up sometimes, the caller could do not always fold, etc.

However, I don't see why the 88 should be folded ever given the aforementioned scenario.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 4:59am   #6
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Are tag players regularly calling/raising 4bets with TT and AQ in the games you play?
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 5:48am   #7
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Hard to say because if they fold, we don't know what they had, but I've seen people show up with those hands, yeah. If they know what they're doing they're not 3betting those hands to fold to a 4bet, generally speaking.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 5:53am   #8
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Originally Posted by Banalanal View Post
Fair enough on the overbet. However, the idea is the same. Against his squeeze range, my 88's aren't losing money, given sometimes he is bluff squeezing and will fold and my 4bet (not a shove) gets the dead money, and assuming his pushing range is what was mentioned.

Obviously he could call screwing it up sometimes, the caller could do not always fold, etc.

However, I don't see why the 88 should be folded ever given the aforementioned scenario.
Again, I think a measured 4 bet has basically the same fold equity as a shove and is less expensive. If you make a measured 4bet with the standard all in hands and 4bet shove on other occasions, it's pretty clear that I need less to play against your shove than I do your measured 4bets.

There is another option, which is play flops. If he's wont to just stack off following a squeeze you have odds to draw on a set, if he's the kind who cbets and gives up when he gets called and doesn't have it, you can pick the pot up with position. Though obviously, this can also get expensive in a hurry.

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 5:54am   #9
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Hard to say because if they fold, we don't know what they had, but I've seen people show up with those hands, yeah. If they know what they're doing they're not 3betting those hands to fold to a 4bet, generally speaking.
Anyone capable of getting all in with TT or AQ gets a note.

Not that I haven't 5bet shoved TT myself, but the opponent in question was 4betting 16%. Somehow he still had AA...

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 10:50am   #10
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My cash game experience is mostly live where if you raise JJ and get 3bet and dont have set mining odds its a fold... but um, fold is standard here I guess. You have to be pretty sure he has air about half the time to 4bet or shove here imo
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