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Old Jan 13, 2010, 11:32pm   #1
ElKabong
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I've been lurking at the forum for about a year now and it has improved my play greatly. A year ago I was the new beginner poker god and then i crashed, obviously. Now I've finally become a good poker player. In fact good enough to know that I suck at poker The last two months have been real good to me and I think I've finally started to play some winning poker. A big thanks to all the regulars who helped me achieve this. I still feel like a beginner after a year but at least my BR har started to grow a lot faster. I just hope that doubling my BR over two months ($400 to 800) is the result of solid poker and not just a streak of luck.

It seems as if everything regarding FL has been said here already judging from the action at the FL forum. Let's see if we can get it going again.

Lately I've been giving blind stealing a lot of thought. I mostly play full ring FL $.25/.50 and $.50/1 and try to be tight agressive, but play quite a bit shorthand too. The last few months I'm VP$IP 23 PFR 8 AF 1.8. Against people respecting my raises I steal with Ax, any two face cards, any PPs och the high suited Kx and Qx and it works quite well. The problem I have is when to steal against loose players and calling stations. When is a steal profitable against the looser players? Usually I c-bet the flop and then slow down on turn and river if I miss completely. I also have a bad tendency to call the river with a semi good hand on the river, if i checked the turn, and not give them credit when they hit with their crap. I find stealing from the sb hard too, even with good hands. Just so hard to be OOP after all. Maybe you have som tips for stealing from sb.

I've just recently moved up to .50/1 and I find myself quite loose in the small blind. At .25/.50 it was just .10 to complete it and I think I've picked up a bad habit. I think it shows a bit more when its 50% of the bb instead of 40% to complete. Of course I fold the crap, but if there are a few limpers i tend to call with suited one gappers (or a bit worse) Kxs, Qxs and similar. I even call with Ax and sometimes find myself calling to showdown with my crappy kicker (especially if the bettor is likely to bet with middle pair. Is it profitable to complete the sb with these types of hands in the long run against a few limpers or is it a leak? I also call a raise with the better drawing hands, if enough people are in the pot, but that feels like more +EV.

Another thing that's been bugging me is my stats for different levels. At .05/.10 I'm a winning player (6BB/100 give or take) and the same thing for .25/.50 (3.5BB/100) but at .10/.20 I'm a break even player. At least 10k hands for each level. It seems like a bit too large sample size just to blame this on variance. But 10k isn't that much after all.

I hope a few anwers will help my game and perhaps get this part of the forum going again.
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Old Jan 15, 2010, 4:49am   #2
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The last few months I'm VP$IP 23 PFR 8 AF 1.8.
this is full ring right?

pfr is low compared to your vpip, and your vpip might be a little bit high.

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The problem I have is when to steal against loose players and calling stations. When is a steal profitable against the looser players?
When it isn't a steal. It's probably not worth your while trying to steal blinds from stations because they'll defend with anything.

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Usually I c-bet the flop and then slow down on turn and river if I miss completely. I also have a bad tendency to call the river with a semi good hand on the river, if i checked the turn, and not give them credit when they hit with their crap.
stations don't respect cbets. most of them probably don't know what a cbet is. limit hold'em is full of people who will peel a card off. this means that a significant number of your cbets aren't actually cbets, they're valuebets because your ace high is ahead of their range and you're getting bet odds.

i will now impart a play of my own design, which daniel negreanu also discovered and viciously published in one of his books purely to piss me off. delayed cbetting. instead of betting the flop when you are the preflop raiser and miss completely, check and bet the turn instead. don't do this every time, because it makes you predictable and easy to read, but throw it in now and again.

sometimes he will lead into you on the turn and you have to fold, fair enough, you were going to lose this hand anyway because you have 9 high and he would have peeled against your flop cbet. however it's much harder for him to peel on the turn because it's twice as expensive and he only has one more card to come to make him a hand.

he also has to deal with the possibilities that you either flopped a strong hand and trapchecked or that you hit the turn, two more reasons for him to fold.

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I find stealing from the sb hard too, even with good hands. Just so hard to be OOP after all. Maybe you have som tips for stealing from sb.
don't.

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I've just recently moved up to .50/1 and I find myself quite loose in the small blind.
leak.

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At .25/.50 it was just .10 to complete it and I think I've picked up a bad habit. I think it shows a bit more when its 50% of the bb instead of 40% to complete.
yes.

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Of course I fold the crap, but if there are a few limpers i tend to call with suited one gappers (or a bit worse) Kxs, Qxs and similar. I even call with Ax and sometimes find myself calling to showdown with my crappy kicker (especially if the bettor is likely to bet with middle pair. Is it profitable to complete the sb with these types of hands in the long run against a few limpers or is it a leak? I also call a raise with the better drawing hands, if enough people are in the pot, but that feels like more +EV.
draws play awkwardly from early position. it's much harder to get paid than it is in late position. also, in late position you will often have the opportunity to raise draws for the free card. Big-little suited is a hand you should just be junking.

regarding AX, if you're in a game where pretty much everyone always raises any AX they're going to play (which you probably aren't), then you can be confident you have the only ace if nobody raises. i quite often limp AX in a 6 handed game for this reason, I get paid when I make top pair because it's hard to put me (a loose aggressive player who's raising about 20% of hands) on an ace. i doubt this idea has as much value at 50c-1 as it does at say, 20-40.

short version, you don't want to be playing very many hands from the sb.

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Another thing that's been bugging me is my stats for different levels. At .05/.10 I'm a winning player (6BB/100 give or take) and the same thing for .25/.50 (3.5BB/100) but at .10/.20 I'm a break even player. At least 10k hands for each level. It seems like a bit too large sample size just to blame this on variance. But 10k isn't that much after all.
it probably is variance. i'm a lifetime loser at 2-4. in my case the rake did interfere somewhat; max rake at 1-2 was $1, max rake at 3-6 was $3, max rake at 2-4 was...also $3.

Kc
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Old Jan 15, 2010, 6:32am   #3
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i will now impart a play of my own design, which daniel negreanu also discovered and viciously published in one of his books purely to piss me off. delayed cbetting. instead of betting the flop when you are the preflop raiser and miss completely, check and bet the turn instead. don't do this every time, because it makes you predictable and easy to read, but throw it in now and again.

sometimes he will lead into you on the turn and you have to fold, fair enough, you were going to lose this hand anyway because you have 9 high and he would have peeled against your flop cbet. however it's much harder for him to peel on the turn because it's twice as expensive and he only has one more card to come to make him a hand.

he also has to deal with the possibilities that you either flopped a strong hand and trapchecked or that you hit the turn, two more reasons for him to fold.
ROFL! You and D. Negreanu invented delayed c-bets:rolle yes:
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Old Jan 15, 2010, 7:10am   #4
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ROFL! You and D. Negreanu invented delayed c-bets:rolle yes:
i'll just let you laugh, it's easier than explaining what's wrong with your logic

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Old Jan 15, 2010, 3:40pm   #5
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this is full ring right?
right

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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
When it isn't a steal. It's probably not worth your while trying to steal blinds from stations because they'll defend with anything.
But it has to be worth my while to raise for value from button or CO after all, with no limpers. After all it's a fine line between stealing and value betting here.
But where to draw that line. The same goes for sb. When to bet for value against just bb

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don't do this every time, because it makes you predictable and easy to read, but throw it in now and again.
I guess that's true for a lot of situations. I don't change my style of play often enough. Although I find that playing predictable most of the time makes it easier to execute a good bluff against people who know my playing style when i represent. But then again, it's probably not worth it for those few occasions.

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he also has to deal with the possibilities that you either flopped a strong hand and trapchecked or that you hit the turn, two more reasons for him to fold.
Great point. Always nice to know the reasons behind someone's reasoning. Is this useful against more opponents as well. After all I can probably buy myself a few outs by c-betting with, let's say, two overcards on an uncoordinated flop from MP. And it's a lot less likely that everyone missed the flop and give me a chance to do the delayed c-bet on turn and even less likely that everyone will fold. Guess I answered my own question all of a sudden

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i doubt this idea has as much value at 50c-1 as it does at say, 20-40.
Probably not. But at least it's an idea to keep in mind for later

I really appreciate your quality advice KC, but sometimes I miss the other side of you The side that quoted Alexei Sayle from The Young Ones waaaaay back. Reading that post really made my day
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Old Jan 15, 2010, 4:49pm   #6
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But it has to be worth my while to raise for value from button or CO after all, with no limpers. After all it's a fine line between stealing and value betting here.
But where to draw that line. The same goes for sb. When to bet for value against just bb
i imagine you won't go far wrong with sklansky's preflop chart from 15 years ago, though off the top of my head i can't remember it and i'm too lazy to walk 3 yards to the bookcase.

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I guess that's true for a lot of situations. I don't change my style of play often enough. Although I find that playing predictable most of the time makes it easier to execute a good bluff against people who know my playing style when i represent. But then again, it's probably not worth it for those few occasions.
yeah, most of the time you should be playing ABC and it should be the same ABC, but if you don't change it up occasionally you become predictable, easy to read and exploitable.

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Great point. Always nice to know the reasons behind someone's reasoning. Is this useful against more opponents as well. After all I can probably buy myself a few outs by c-betting with, let's say, two overcards on an uncoordinated flop from MP. And it's a lot less likely that everyone missed the flop and give me a chance to do the delayed c-bet on turn and even less likely that everyone will fold. Guess I answered my own question all of a sudden
I would rarely flop cbet against multiple opponents, but if you're last to act on the turn and they check to you again, you can take a stab on dry flops.

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I really appreciate your quality advice KC, but sometimes I miss the other side of you The side that quoted Alexei Sayle from The Young Ones waaaaay back. Reading that post really made my day
I wish I could remember what I quoted...and I wish I knew which side of me was absent.

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Old Jan 15, 2010, 7:18pm   #7
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i imagine you won't go far wrong with sklansky's preflop chart from 15 years ago, though off the top of my head i can't remember it and i'm too lazy to walk 3 yards to the bookcase.
Guess i could feed my google and come up with somthing useful. After all you have to feed it every day just like any other pet.

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I would rarely flop cbet against multiple opponents, but if you're last to act on the turn and they check to you again, you can take a stab on dry flops.
Guess I'l go easier on the cbetting against multiple opponents from now on when not value betting. That could very well be one of the leaks I'm looking for.

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I wish I could remember what I quoted...and I wish I knew which side of me was absent.

it's not class or ideology
colour, creed or roots
the only thing that unites us
is doctor martins boots
I think it was about the revolutionary biscuits of Italy.

Quite frankly I thought you'd say something that would make me cry in a corner and take up bingo instead. The sar-caaarstic side was absent, the one that Brian Damage loves sooo much.
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Old Jan 16, 2010, 9:10am   #8
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Guess i could feed my google and come up with somthing useful. After all you have to feed it every day just like any other pet.
you can probably find holdem for advanced players on rapidshare. the meat of the book might not be appropriate to your games just yet...try miller's small stakes hold'em instead.

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Guess I'l go easier on the cbetting against multiple opponents from now on when not value betting. That could very well be one of the leaks I'm looking for.
if you use a database and hud, you can always see how people respond to cbets, but by and large i would expect your opponents to call them too often. this means you should pure cbet less and bet the better nothings for value.

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I think it was about the revolutionary biscuits of Italy.
rise up out of your box!
you have nothing to lose but your wafers!
yum yum yum yum yum!

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Quite frankly I thought you'd say something that would make me cry in a corner and take up bingo instead. The sar-caaarstic side was absent, the one that Brian Damage loves sooo much.
i'm saving up my caustic sarcasm for people who think they know something.

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Old Jan 16, 2010, 8:58pm   #9
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In response to your original post, no 10k hand sizes aren't that relevant. In fact if you believed my last 50k hands for winrate I'm one of the top 10 FL players at 3/6 and below on Stars and I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

At low stakes games the mantra is pretty much "Value Value Value" and getting yourself into situations where you ahve a big edge. The rake you are paying at these levels is horrific and thus the edge you need to be a winning player is greater than it is higher up.

Now fortunately there are a lot more people at lower stakes who have trouble not drooling on themselves so you can often put yourself in great positions.

Re: stealing

It can still be profitable vs bad loose players becasue you get to play in position with initiative and if you're a strong value bettor you get to dictate the action. Out of position I agree with folding your weaker, and especially easily dominated, hands but if I'm first in on the CO or Button just becasue the BB is a 70% VPIP retard won't stop me opening a ton on him.

I also do open a ton from the SB (although not much atm becasue I'm playing 3/6 and that's a 1/3 structure so I've back off to about top 40% of hands) because a lot of players do not defend their Big Blind enough, especially at low stakes, now obviously if your opponent always defends then you can think about how to react but as a defualt I still open decently wide and I also overlimp a shitload in a 1/2 structure if there are 2 open-limpers, that's just basic pot odds.
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Old Jan 17, 2010, 12:28pm   #10
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Re: stealing

It can still be profitable vs bad loose players becasue you get to play in position with initiative
that isn't a steal

that's a position raise

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