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Old Jan 22, 2010, 10:05am   #1
ElKabong
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Default When in doubt, call like a station

Seat 1: nenothe ($7.11)
Seat 2: Mayumi ($43.74)
Seat 3: playerpok ($12.0
Seat 4: Derdex ($70.67)
Seat 5: berti2006 ($46.70)
Seat 6: Pad0254 ($64.90)
Seat 7: HERO ($31.65)
Seat 8: 8pus ($59.31)
Seat 9: isokoski7 ($52.95)
Seat 10: -ago- ($27.05)
isokoski7 posts the small blind of $0.25
-ago- posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Qc Kh]
nenothe folds
Mayumi folds
playerpok calls $0.50
Derdex raises to $1.00
berti2006 folds
Pad0254 folds
HERO calls $1.00
8pus folds
isokoski7 folds
-ago- calls $0.50
playerpok calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [8c 10s Qh]
-ago- checks
playerpok checks
Derdex bets $0.50
HERO raises to $1.00
-ago- folds
playerpok calls $1.00
Derdex raises to $1.50
HERO calls $0.50
playerpok calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [8d]
playerpok checks
Derdex bets $1.00
HERO calls $1.00
playerpok calls $1.00
*** RIVER *** [Js]
playerpok checks
Derdex bets $1.00
HERO calls $1.00
playerpok calls $1.00

playerpok is loose passive and a calling station and Derdex is semi tight aggressive

A perfect example of me not being aggressive enough preflop and then turning into a calling station. Raise or fold with KQo, I think I'll call. I do the same thing with quite a few hands, even though I know i shouldn't. Well at least with AQ, AJ, 99, sometimes TT and maybe a few more. Too good to fold and not good enough, IMO, to raise and yet I know I shouldn't cold call.

Last edited by ElKabong; Jan 22, 2010 at 10:11am.
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 8:18pm   #2
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Yeah 3-bet or fold pre. I could go either way vs a semi-TAG. Kjo I'd instantly fold and KQs I'd 3-bet so either way's meh.

Post-flop's fine, once you're 3-bet you're probably doomed but not much you can do and you may be getting overlay from the calling station.

The only thought is maybe folding the river becasue it's so scary and the TAG is pretty much NEVER bluffing.
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Old Jan 23, 2010, 6:08am   #3
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did i miss a memo? KQo is not a reraise-or-fold. i can't think of any reraise-or-fold hands tbh. KQo is rarely a reraise or a fold anyway, it's usually a call.

Sklansky is vague on exactly what you should be reraising but he seems to have KQo as borderline raise/call. Jones says call. Miller says buy my book you cheap piece of shit even though it's so easy to find just by typing "small stakes hold'em rapidshare rar" into google.

I'm having difficulty reasoning a fold in the cutoff against an utg+2 limp and utg+3 raiser. i might reraise depending on who's on the button and who the other guys are, but most of the time i call here.

miller has downloaded, he says you should...wade through fucking treacle for a simple answer. here we go

open AKo AQo AJo and KQo from any position, beware if someone raises in front of you because he might have AK if you don't have AK and even if you do he might too, or he might not, so maybe fold unless you don't and i won't tell you how to decide when to not do either. if you don't then do something else like waffle in a contradictory manner to cover your ass and pad the book out. if the raiser will also raise some other hands like AT and KJ, which he should unless he shouldn't, then don't fold AQ. if he's mental and thinks K6s is a raise, reraise with some weaker hands like AJ and KQ.

i'm not sure but i think all 3 authors agree with me, call but reraising is okay or even preferable if you have the right players.

flop, turn, fine.

not much we can beat on the river, jack is worst card in the deck for our hand...

lose to AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 AQ QJ QT Q9 J9 T9 T8 98

win against KJ, Q7, JT, split with KQ

tough to see him raising Q7 preflop, KJ and JT would have to be optimistic to bet on the river; might bluff a weak queen out but there are no "weak" queens bigger than Q7.

of the hands we lose to, 99 and JJ probably don't push like this, Q9 J9 and T8 are all kooky raises preflop, one gaps are player dependant...

without busting out pokerstove, i think you're somewhere between 10 and 20:1 depending on how likely it is the pfr is playing JT or KJ like this. you also have to factor the fish in, it doesn't look like he's particularly strong but if he's genuinely loose passive he could be anywhere. for 14:1, you can probably save the bet unless you can be confident the pfr is doing this with at least...bleurgh...a third of his KJ and JT hands. calling isn't terrible, but i think folding is better.

Kc
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Old Jan 23, 2010, 1:41pm   #4
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
did i miss a memo? KQo is not a reraise-or-fold. i can't think of any reraise-or-fold hands tbh. KQo is rarely a reraise or a fold anyway, it's usually a call.
OK I'll put it another way. 3-bet/fold is the default play for me and I would need a reason to call, not the other way round. The only reason I would call in this spot is if I have terror-bad players behind me who are going to call a ton/add a ton of value to the pot by being in it. I'm not someone, who like a lot of LHE players, will go "ZOMG COLD CALL MEANS YOU'RE HORRIBLE" but I do need a reason to do it and unless there's a read here I don't see the reason mainly due to what cold calling signifies (i.e. I have a hand I want to play but I don't think it's good enough to 3-bet vs you. Please remove xyz from my range).

Quote:
Sklansky is vague on exactly what you should be reraising but he seems to have KQo as borderline raise/call. Jones says call. Miller says buy my book you cheap piece of shit even though it's so easy to find just by typing "small stakes hold'em rapidshare rar" into google.

miller has downloaded, he says you should...wade through fucking treacle for a simple answer. here we go

open AKo AQo AJo and KQo from any position, beware if someone raises in front of you because he might have AK if you don't have AK and even if you do he might too, or he might not, so maybe fold unless you don't and i won't tell you how to decide when to not do either. if you don't then do something else like waffle in a contradictory manner to cover your ass and pad the book out. if the raiser will also raise some other hands like AT and KJ, which he should unless he shouldn't, then don't fold AQ. if he's mental and thinks K6s is a raise, reraise with some weaker hands like AJ and KQ.

i'm not sure but i think all 3 authors agree with me, call but reraising is okay or even preferable if you have the right players.
Having said that, Miller and Sklansky's response both seems to be..."uh I don't know" and I havent' read Lee's book in a long time so I'm not going to comment on it but I do remember his advice being tight, due to it being a beginner's book.

Stox's book doesn't add much to the equation either as most of his 3-betting advice is based on re-stealing and even that's deemed nitty-ish now compared to your average 5/T+ LAGTAG.

Personally I look at it like this, if the raiser is pretty tight and the blind behind me aren't awful I can let this go, it's marginal at best vs a 3-off the button raise due to the fact it's a dominated hand and isn't suited. If the raiser is somewhat loose I will 3-bet for value and position and all that good stuff, and if the blinds are truly awful and play almost any 2 for a single raise, I'll consider calling but it needs to be pretty specific.

Quote:
flop, turn, fine.

not much we can beat on the river, jack is worst card in the deck for our hand...

lose to AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 AQ QJ QT Q9 J9 T9 T8 98

win against KJ, Q7, JT, split with KQ

tough to see him raising Q7 preflop, KJ and JT would have to be optimistic to bet on the river; might bluff a weak queen out but there are no "weak" queens bigger than Q7.

of the hands we lose to, 99 and JJ probably don't push like this, Q9 J9 and T8 are all kooky raises preflop, one gaps are player dependant...

without busting out pokerstove, i think you're somewhere between 10 and 20:1 depending on how likely it is the pfr is playing JT or KJ like this. you also have to factor the fish in, it doesn't look like he's particularly strong but if he's genuinely loose passive he could be anywhere. for 14:1, you can probably save the bet unless you can be confident the pfr is doing this with at least...bleurgh...a third of his KJ and JT hands. calling isn't terrible, but i think folding is better.

Kc
Sounds good
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Old Jan 23, 2010, 8:38pm   #5
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Originally Posted by Boomer2k6 View Post
OK I'll put it another way. 3-bet/fold is the default play for me and I would need a reason to call, not the other way round.
you've got it now.

that's really just the dramatic answer, i'm not quite that full of myself, although i would happily sit with sklansky, jones and miller if you could arrange the game.

sklansky has this as borderline raise/call. his book is strictly mid limit so we can ignore him if you want. miller says only reraise against fruitbats, jones says always call. not that i really care what they say but i figure other people do, and citations can't hurt.

definitely not a fold except in the most bizarre of circumstances, whether it's a reraise or a call depends on the table, the players, and your table image.

for some guys, reraising this as standard is going to be fine, it works with how they play. for some guys, calling as standard is going to be fine. if folding is standard you need to call a plumber, your landlord should have given you a list of approved tradesmen and your lease probably requires you to report necessary repairs as soon as they become apparent.

Quote:
I'm not someone, who like a lot of LHE players, will go "ZOMG COLD CALL MEANS YOU'RE HORRIBLE"
really? people actually think that? cool, another thing to add to my list of things everyone is wrong about. shit i might actually get a book out of this.

Quote:
but I do need a reason to do it and unless there's a read here I don't see the reason mainly due to what cold calling signifies (i.e. I have a hand I want to play but I don't think it's good enough to 3-bet vs you.
yeah that's pretty much where KQ is at, we also keep a solid hand disguised.

Quote:
Please remove xyz from my range).
you don't think people who are paying attention to your pfr aren't also looking at your pfrr? i guess someone who's only had pokertracker for a week might not have found that yet, but c'mon. your flat call range should be way bigger than your reraising range.

out of interest, which gets paid better? the top of your flatting range or the bottom of your reraising range?

Quote:
Having said that, Miller and Sklansky's response both seems to be..."uh I don't know"
miller actually says flat except against idiots, i can give you a direct quote if you want. sklansky calls it borderline, but i can't be arsed with another trip to the bookshelf, he muddies the waters with his group i group ii group iii thing. he has KQo as the best hand in group iv if memory serves.

Quote:
and I havent' read Lee's book in a long time so I'm not going to comment on it
me neither, took me ages to find the bloody thing. lee at least gives clear charts, which is why we love lee.

Quote:
but I do remember his advice being tight, due to it being a beginner's book.
beginner is subjective. it's a great first book because it's designed for the no fold'em games most beginners are playing in and he doesn't advocate anything you can fuck up on later streets.

Quote:
Stox's book doesn't add much to the equation either as most of his 3-betting advice is based on re-stealing and even that's deemed nitty-ish now compared to your average 5/T+ LAGTAG.
haven't read stox book. is it any good? is he the same guy responsible for that stoxev rip-off-the-fish bullshit?

Quote:
Personally I look at it like this, if the raiser is pretty tight and the blind behind me aren't awful I can let this go, it's marginal at best vs a 3-off the button raise due to the fact it's a dominated hand and isn't suited.
sure, you're dominated by AK and AQ, and you dominate just as much if not more of his raising range. plus when you flop two pair against AK/AQ you open the door with his face, when he flops two pair he barely scratches you. it's a raise/call.

Quote:
If the raiser is somewhat loose I will 3-bet for value and position and all that good stuff
somewhat loose i still favour calling, you're going to get better value if he has KQ at the top of your range rather than at the bottom. if you call and the flop is KT4, how does he feel about JT? skeptical. if you reraise how does he feel? worried.

Quote:
and if the blinds are truly awful and play almost any 2 for a single raise, I'll consider calling but it needs to be pretty specific.
you completely ignored buying the button. unless that's what you mean by raising for position. lets assume it is, it probably is, but next time call it buying the button

Kc
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Old Jan 24, 2010, 1:24pm   #6
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really? people actually think that? cool, another thing to add to my list of things everyone is wrong about. shit i might actually get a book out of this.
It's mainly due to the surge of 6-max as the dominant game. In 6-max the ranges are so wide esp in late position that assuming "You're FOS 3-bet you" is pretty much correct the vast majority of the time. I would fold KQo for 1 raise pre-flop pretty much never in 6-max however if the raise came from EP in a FR game I could probably be persuaded to take alternative action due to the tighter ranges.

Quote:
yeah that's pretty much where KQ is at, we also keep a solid hand disguised.
Are you flatting any mega strong hands here?

Quote:
you don't think people who are paying attention to your pfr aren't also looking at your pfrr? i guess someone who's only had pokertracker for a week might not have found that yet, but c'mon. your flat call range should be way bigger than your reraising range.
Actually due to playing 6-max if I'm not in the BB my 3-betting range is the default range. The "flat call out of BB for balance" is something I've experimented with vs players who I think are competent enough to know that if I 3-bet an early position raise from the BB 95% of the time I've got pretty much a monster and they can play accordingly. There's also a school of thought that says if you're facing an EP raise and a 3-bet you should flat EVERYTHING you want to play from the BB assuming the guys you're up against are competent in order to completely hide the times you're speculating and the times you have a monster hand. Also allows you to attempt to isolate on good flops due to your relative position.

Quote:
out of interest, which gets paid better? the top of your flatting range or the bottom of your reraising range?
Hard to say due to sample size issues. I've definitely got excess action due to people not realising I'll flat EP raises in the BB with big hands sometimes, or by me keeping the pot a little smaller allowing me to take the pot away on later streets but I've also picked up a shitload of pots in CO/HJ vs CO/Button/SB scenarios by taking the aggressive lead vs a wide range by 3-betting. The problem is it's so rare that it's a limp or 2 plus a raise to you when you're not one of the blinds in 6-max that I'd need a monstrous sample to gain any real insight.


Quote:
haven't read stox book. is it any good? is he the same guy responsible for that stoxev rip-off-the-fish bullshit?
It's pretty much the book that everyone swears by now for SH games and aggressive FR games. Can't argue with the results, he provides millions of hands of empirical data and Stove/etc analysis so it can be dry in places. He tends to over-love the Free Showdown Raise and by todays standards it's probably a little nitty from late position but if someone wanted to get into 6-max these days and wanted some reading material it'd be the book (after some of the basic ones) I'd have them read before taking the plunge.

As for stoxev it's launched by the training site he owns (Stoxpoker). How much he had to do with it I don't know, I think Bryce Paradis and a few of the technical guys had a lot more to do with it. Personally if I want to examine ranges I either use Equialtor or Pokerrazor both of which are free (although Pokerazor is a little crippled if you don't buy the full version but still has enough functionality)


Quote:
somewhat loose i still favour calling, you're going to get better value if he has KQ at the top of your range rather than at the bottom. if you call and the flop is KT4, how does he feel about JT? skeptical. if you reraise how does he feel? worried.
Again this may be 6-max vs FR but in 6-max he's never getting off JT and may even raise with it at some point becasue the 6-max thought process will usually go:

Him: "well he can have A-High, pocket pairs, Broadway gutshots I raise"
Me: "either 3-bet flop or call and raise turn depending on players factors"
Him: "He could be FSDR'ing or pumping a draw I call"
Me: "Value Bet"
Him: "I'm probably beat but I'm getting a lot to 1 and I has a pair"

Quote:
you completely ignored buying the button. unless that's what you mean by raising for position. lets assume it is, it probably is, but next time call it buying the button

Kc
I likes the button
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Old Jan 24, 2010, 4:07pm   #7
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Originally Posted by Boomer2k6 View Post
It's mainly due to the surge of 6-max as the dominant game. In 6-max the ranges are so wide esp in late position that assuming "You're FOS 3-bet you" is pretty much correct the vast majority of the time.
it really isn't.

my 3betting range 6 handed isn't that much wider than my 3betting range full, though i find more spots where it's worth threebetting for the button or to isolate. "you're full of shit i reraise" is rarely the way to go at any point in a limit hand.

Quote:
I would fold KQo for 1 raise pre-flop pretty much never in 6-max however if the raise came from EP in a FR game I could probably be persuaded to take alternative action due to the tighter ranges.
if it comes utg from a tight abc player you can make a solid case for folding KQo, sure. But when utg+3 is the raiser, you're in the pot.

Quote:
Are you flatting any mega strong hands here?
very very rarely, so for all intents and purposes, no.

Quote:
Hard to say due to sample size issues. I've definitely got excess action due to people not realising I'll flat EP raises in the BB with big hands sometimes, or by me keeping the pot a little smaller allowing me to take the pot away on later streets but I've also picked up a shitload of pots in CO/HJ vs CO/Button/SB scenarios by taking the aggressive lead vs a wide range by 3-betting. The problem is it's so rare that it's a limp or 2 plus a raise to you when you're not one of the blinds in 6-max that I'd need a monstrous sample to gain any real insight.
pull the BB out of your stats, actually just look at cutoff and button.

Quote:
It's pretty much the book that everyone swears by now for SH games and aggressive FR games. Can't argue with the results, he provides millions of hands of empirical data and Stove/etc analysis so it can be dry in places. He tends to over-love the Free Showdown Raise and by todays standards it's probably a little nitty from late position but if someone wanted to get into 6-max these days and wanted some reading material it'd be the book (after some of the basic ones) I'd have them read before taking the plunge.
fair enough. do i have to pay for it?

see it used to be that the way to be a serious winner at limit hold'em was to read sklansky because that's how everyone who knew what they were doing played, thus making them pretty exploitable.

i've never put much stock in out of the box strategies, it's more profitable to figure opponents out and play them rather than play yourself.

Quote:
As for stoxev it's launched by the training site he owns (Stoxpoker). How much he had to do with it I don't know, I think Bryce Paradis and a few of the technical guys had a lot more to do with it. Personally if I want to examine ranges I either use Equialtor or Pokerrazor both of which are free (although Pokerazor is a little crippled if you don't buy the full version but still has enough functionality)
i'm too old for all of this new fangled crap

Quote:
Again this may be 6-max vs FR but in 6-max he's never getting off JT and may even raise with it at some point becasue the 6-max thought process will usually go:
this might be a small stakes vs less small stakes divergence. i should have used AT rather than JT in my example, but whatever. if you flatted then your range is wide, it's got some draws in it and some bad tens. if you reraised your range narrows to hands that hit the king and didnt need to hit anyway, sure you might gun down QJ or 99 if they're in your reraising range, AQ is a candidate to bet to the turn and check behind, but some guys will bet it on the end too for some ridiculous reason as if AJ is going to call. Most of the time, more often than the pot odds are laying, JT is beat by the preflop reraiser, your second pair can only beat air.

Kc
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Old Jan 24, 2010, 4:58pm   #8
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it really isn't.

my 3betting range 6 handed isn't that much wider than my 3betting range full, though i find more spots where it's worth threebetting for the button or to isolate. "you're full of shit i reraise" is rarely the way to go at any point in a limit hand.
Bad wording on my part, apologies. More like "This is 6-max where most players have convinced themselves they have to open more hands than in the equivalent position in a FR game and where large multiway pots aren't so commonplace so winning the pot without a showdown by having position and initiative becomes a potentially larger factor"

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very very rarely, so for all intents and purposes, no.
Won't this make your range easier to read for observant players?

Quote:
pull the BB out of your stats, actually just look at cutoff and button.
Waaay too small a sample but if I had to hazard a guess I gain a LOT more from 3-betting in position when faced with 1 raise at a 6-max table than I do from calling in the average game.

Quote:
fair enough. do i have to pay for it?
Sadly yes

Quote:
see it used to be that the way to be a serious winner at limit hold'em was to read sklansky because that's how everyone who knew what they were doing played, thus making them pretty exploitable.

i've never put much stock in out of the box strategies, it's more profitable to figure opponents out and play them rather than play yourself.
Agreed somewhat. Out of the box strategies tend to lead to the type of players who grind SNE on Stars while losing 0.5BB/100. The players who crush pretty much are all hyper-aggressive, hyper-exploitative players who understand all the standard situations and know how to get the most out of them...oh and play less than a bajillion tables.

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i'm too old for all of this new fangled crap
Maths is fun...when something else does it for you. Problem being that the more accurate your calculations get the more correct your original assumptions have to be or the answer is meaningless

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this might be a small stakes vs less small stakes divergence. i should have used AT rather than JT in my example, but whatever. if you flatted then your range is wide, it's got some draws in it and some bad tens. if you reraised your range narrows to hands that hit the king and didnt need to hit anyway, sure you might gun down QJ or 99 if they're in your reraising range, AQ is a candidate to bet to the turn and check behind, but some guys will bet it on the end too for some ridiculous reason as if AJ is going to call. Most of the time, more often than the pot odds are laying, JT is beat by the preflop reraiser, your second pair can only beat air.

Kc
My range for 3-betting a UTG (6-max) or UTG+3 (9-max) player in the CO has plenty of stuff which has missed here so getting rid of any T vs me would probably be a mistake especially in a 3-bet pot and I'm certainly not someone who has a wide 3-betting range vs a UTG (6-max) player. So my range isn't narrowed enough by 3-betting that my opponent has an easy decision with JTs here and due to the fact I have position.

Using Pokerrazor putting JTs vs my 3-betting range (Co vs UTG (6-max)) here is pretty much an exact coinflip and if you add little things like BDFD's to the equation then JTs becomes a small favourite and ATo is a slight favourite too (Although we're talking between 50 and 51% for both)

Wow this is a long winded way of saying "The OP's hand is probaby ok" but I'm having fun with it

Great to have a discussion on here after all this time
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Last edited by Boomer2k6; Jan 24, 2010 at 5:00pm.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 1:54am   #9
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by Boomer2k6 View Post
Bad wording on my part, apologies. More like "This is 6-max where most players have convinced themselves they have to open more hands than in the equivalent position in a FR game and where large multiway pots aren't so commonplace so winning the pot without a showdown by having position and initiative becomes a potentially larger factor"
i think what people fail to understand is that you win substantially less pots by virtue of position and initiative when you're the reraiser who made the last aggression preflop than you do when you are the raiser who made the last aggression preflop. people will fight you in reraised pots because (i) they had a hand good enough to raise and (ii) the pot is bigger. they get out of your way more often when you raised and they called because they're calling with the mindset of outflopping you.

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Won't this make your range easier to read for observant players?
sure, but the reraising part of my range is the smallest section anyway, and AK makes up a whole lot of it. when AK hits, QQ and JJ make up a lot of my range too. enough to call down with a second best pair. AQ is in there too.

disguising big pairs by including more in my threebetting range has very little value in limit.

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Waaay too small a sample but if I had to hazard a guess I gain a LOT more from 3-betting in position when faced with 1 raise at a 6-max table than I do from calling in the average game.
fair enough if it fits your style and your opponents play ball with it. keep an eye on this when you move up.

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Sadly yes
fuck that then. i'm not shelling out $30 to disagree with someone. just tell me what it's called and i'll see if i can liberate it.

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Agreed somewhat. Out of the box strategies tend to lead to the type of players who grind SNE on Stars while losing 0.5BB/100. The players who crush pretty much are all hyper-aggressive, hyper-exploitative players who understand all the standard situations and know how to get the most out of them...oh and play less than a bajillion tables.
i know at least one player who crushes who doesn't play hyperaggressive. hyperaggressive is hyperexploitable ime. nothing is standard.

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Maths is fun...when something else does it for you. Problem being that the more accurate your calculations get the more correct your original assumptions have to be or the answer is meaningless
is that how it works? i thought the uncertainties in the original data were proportional to the uncertainty in the result. you put the kettle on and i'll ring the royal society.

actually they won't take my calls any more, i'd best make the tea.

Quote:
My range for 3-betting a UTG (6-max) or UTG+3 (9-max) player in the CO has plenty of stuff which has missed here so getting rid of any T vs me would probably be a mistake especially in a 3-bet pot
mmkay. well, the pot is at 7 bets as the flop is dealt because the big blind exists, for me to call you down it'll cost 5 bets, so 12:5 pot odds. i'll complete my 5 out draw about 20% of the time, if we assume i always win when i make my draw but never win an extra bet, it's actually a waste of our time because we can do this in a much easier way.

we only needs 30% to call down and JT has about 31% against ATs+ AQo+ TT+ KQo, KJs+, which is almost a 7% reraising range. It improves markedly if you throw AJo in there obviously.

lets consider what happens if all the hands that beat us take us for 5 bets and the hands that we lose to only bet flop and turn then check behind...

TT+ AKs/o, ATs, KQs/o and KJs (5.3/6.8 = 78% of his range) will bet down, we have to contribute 29.5% of the pot with 16.4% equity.

AQs/o and AJs (1.5/6.8 = 22% of his range) will save the river bet, we have to contribute 23% of the pot with 67.5% equity - except! the 32.5% of the time he gets there he _is_ going to make the river bet and we will lose 5, the difference is that we only win 10.

16.4% of 78% win 12
83.6% of 78% lose 5
67.5% of 23% win 10
32.5% of 23% lose 3

= -0.4 bets per game.

oh dear. range needs to be a tad wider to make this work...would be a lot easier to work out if i was allowed to buy stoxev...mostly i'm just mathwanking because people don't get exposed to this kind of shit often enough. also i keep saying that one day i'm going to lie in one of these and i need some smoke to keep it well hidden. unless it was today. but that's smoke too. or is it.

(spoiler: maggie shot mr burns)

give us your 3bet range and do the math out of interest, i'd be interested to see how much JT is earning in this spot.

Quote:
Using Pokerrazor putting JTs vs my 3-betting range (Co vs UTG (6-max)) here is pretty much an exact coinflip and if you add little things like BDFD's to the equation then JTs becomes a small favourite and ATo is a slight favourite too (Although we're talking between 50 and 51% for both)
as in, JTs has 50% equity? JTs should not have 50% against your reraising range, your reraising range is hitting top pair and then dominating second pairs before you get anywhere near 50%, ignoring all those little implied odds finesses, or including them, 50% is way too much.

I hope I misread that.

Quote:
Great to have a discussion on here after all this time
post more hands. most of my hands come down to reads and instincts which make for shitty analysis.

Kc
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Last edited by killcrazy; Jan 25, 2010 at 1:56am.
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 10:52pm   #10
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Yeah I meant on a KT4 board JT has 50% vs my 3-betting range

If we're just talking pre-flop I have JTs as about a 36% dog to a range here I'd consider vs a semi-tight TAG (77+, ATs+, AJo (25), AQo+, KQo, KQs, KJs (25)).

Pretty much all those hands are 3-bets for value vs a 15% UTG raising range in 6-max (i.e. 45% minimum equity and with dead money, position blah blah) so seemed like a decent place to start. There aren't many 6-max players I'd go tighter than this vs though.

The analysis you did can be duplicated into a tree using Pokerrazor (i.e. you can run out certain boards and ranges saying "My opponent folds here with no Pair no Draw 95% of the time and will bluff some times, I will fold under these circumstances etc etc etc" and it will tie all teh trees together to get a result. A friend of mine ran a hand i was mulling over for me in it and it turns out that there were 0.03BB betwen the 2 decisions so it was written off to "Well neither decision is that wrong and at game speed there's really no leak either way."

Stox's book is called Winning In Tough Holdem Games. I'm sure you may be able to liberate it somewhere.

I will get to posting hands when I get round to playing some, I hate not having free time atm.
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