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Old Jan 25, 2010, 3:41am   #1
killcrazy
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Default Three Hands

Different villains each hand.

Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: Irrelevant ( $864 USD )
Seat 1: HERO ( $901 USD )
Seat 4: Irrelevant ( $518 USD )
Seat 5: Irrelevant ( $751.50 USD )
Seat 6: VILLAIN ( $573 USD )
Seat 3: Irrelevant ( $304.50 USD )
Irrelevant posts small blind [$5 USD].
Irrelevant posts big blind [$10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Ad ]
Irrelevant folds
VILLAIN raises [$20 USD]
HERO raises [$30 USD]
Irrelevant folds
Irrelevant folds
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, Qd, Qh ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO bets [$10 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$20 USD]
HERO raises [$20 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO bets [$20 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$20 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO bets [$20 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$40 USD]

scripts for the best player you reraise against and the worst player you call against. what's your action against an unknown?


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 3: VILLAIN ( $1,287.50 USD )
Seat 2: HERO ( $1,398 USD )
Seat 5: Irrelevant ( $1,492 USD )
Seat 4: Irrelevant ( $990.84 USD )
Seat 1: Irrelevant ( $633 USD )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$10 USD].
Irrelevant posts big blind [$15 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qh Qc ]
Irrelevant folds
Irrelevant raises [$30 USD]
HERO raises [$45 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$35 USD]
Irrelevant folds
Irrelevant calls [$15 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 2d, 4s ]
VILLAIN checks
Irrelevant checks
HERO bets [$15 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$30 USD]
Irrelevant folds
HERO raises [$30 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$15 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO bets [$30 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$30 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
VILLAIN bets [$30 USD]

raise or call against an unknown?


Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: Irrelevant ( $826 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $946 USD )
Seat 2: Irrelevant ( $444 USD )
Seat 3: Irrelevant ( $630 USD )
Seat 1: VILLAIN ( $845 USD )
Seat 6: Irrelevant ( $513 USD )
HERO posts small blind [$5 USD].
Irrelevant posts big blind [$10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Ah ]
Irrelevant folds
Irrelevant folds
HERO raises [$15 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 9d, 7d ]
HERO bets [$10 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
HERO bets [$20 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$40 USD]
HERO calls [$20 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
HERO checks
VILLAIN bets [$20 USD]
HERO calls [$20 USD]

does anyone play back against an unknown after the turn raise? what about against a generic solid tag? the turn raise was instant, possibly an auto raise, does that change anything?

remember to show your working.

Kc
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 3:41am   #2
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Ok, just for the discussion, and for giving Kc a chance to throw s**t over a bad limit player....

Hand 1: Action against unknown is a raise I think...since there are few hands in Villain's range that follows along to a cap on the flop and then c/c turn and c/r (wtf?) river.

I mean, what has you beat?

QT and AQ, and AQ is very unlikely...flopping trips and boating up against another Ax hand?

TT, 66, AA are possible, but AA is unlikely (one-outer) and would usually not be open-checked on river; 66 would be played less aggressively on flop and more aggressively on turn; TT is the worst scenario.

So, with such a narrow river-raise range as TT and and possibly QT/66/AA, I guess raising is the action will send more chips into Villain's stack at showdown


Hand 2:

Sense, this hand does not make. Call.


Hand 3:

I'd take your line here.
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Old Jan 29, 2010, 3:03pm   #3
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These limits are way out of my league, as usual. Let's just assume the the unknowns are at least somewhat reasonable players.

Hand 1:
I think I'd give him credit for a boat and just call. There are a lot of made hands out there you beat (most of them actaully), but it feels like losing two more BB or gaining just one if you raise.

I don't think a straight or lower flush would cap on a paired board, but there is just so much for him to represent with a c/r on the river thinking your hand is much weaker than it really is.

Hand 2:
When playing I'd just call, but when having time to think about it I think a raise would be in order. Calling two raises from the bb feels like a semi good pocket pair or ace and a good kicker, probably suited. I don't think he'd raise the flop with A high, but probably with a pair on a board with all low cards and no good draws.

The board pairing is a good spot for a bluff after all especially with no high cards. If he had 22, 44 or 77 he'd probably cap the flop or raise the turn and c/r the turn with 88. I put him on 99 or TT, perhaps even JJ.

Hand 3:
I wouldn't play back, but I would call down. It's always tricky to play against an unknown in bb from sb. He could have anything after all. Auto-raise could mean two things, having a 9 and representing the 9. The turn be looks like he has something. A complete bluff would just check I think.

Against a tag I think you should be playing back on turn. If he had nice pockets he'd probably reraise preflop against a steal and he wouldn't slowplay the flop with a 9 on a flush draw board.
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Old Jan 29, 2010, 6:13pm   #4
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here begins a long waffly explanation.

hand 1.

preflop he raises the cutoff 5 handed and calls the button's threebet, so we're playing against his opening range minus his capping range. That he called a threebet gives us no information except that he didn't cap, since anything you'll raise you'll also at least call with if someone comes over the top. Some guys will cap AKs and JJ, others will call and some will do both depending on their mood.

He checkraises the QxQdTd flop, a flop which should be good for the threebettor, this is funky in and of itself. he then calls when he gets reraised, and checkcalls the 6d on the turn.

The turn checkcall is interesting, because a strong made hand should play back there. A queen would call my threebet on the flop and checkraise the turn when the bets double (indeed, you may ask whether a queen would checkraise the flop at all? wouldn't it be better to lull the pfrr into a false sense of security by checkcalling? - some will, some won't, know your customer). The turn also completes a flush, this shouldn't make trips gun shy, as its significantly more likely i will have one big diamond in my hand than a made flush ergo his bet makes money against the flush/draw complex (the only flushes I can have are AK, AJ and KJ, if he happened to have the Jd in his hand, he would know there was only one way for me to have a flush). if he is already full, he should still checkraise the turn to guarantee he gets that extra bet from the draw, and max value on the river if I make my draw. Finally, if he made a smaller flush (the best flush he could have would be the third flush), he should still attack the turn because so many cards are death, either outdrawing him or killing his action.

So really, there is nothing that should be in his range that beats us on the river, if we are beat, the player gets a note because he's played his hand very strangely (he's not necessarilly fishy just because he waited till the river to checkraise his QT, he might be a strong creative player doing something we don't understand because we don't have the information he has).

The hand that makes most sense given his action is KJ, but even this is weird. AA can also fit; slowplayed preflop and got spooked when he was threebet on the flop, he decided to call down then made the big full on the river. Of course this is highly unlikely since he would need to be dealt the only two aces left in the deck at the same time he decided to do something weird with them.

To not reraise on the river, you would really need to know that your opponent has a confusion about when to wake up and attack with a hand he's slowplayed. Mathswise, you need to be sure that your hand is better than his hand 2/3 of the time because in this spot he will call all the hands that you beat (+1 bet) and will raise all the hands that beat you (-2 bets).

This hand never happened by the way, he flat called the river with a garbage hand after a long think that presumably involved some voodoo math, I just wanted to make it more interesting.

hand 2

Opponent coldcalled a reraise in the small blind. Learn to love optimists. He checkraises the flop and calls the threebet, checkcalls turn and leads river.

This time, you'd need a pretty solid read on your opponent to raise. Again we have a guy who checkraises the preflop reraiser and calls the threebet on the flop, then checkcalls the turn. This time around, however, the turn is not so good and the river is positively bad for us.

His line is unusual for 99 or TT, to play it like this he has to be pretty certain I've got AK (this definitely doesn't fit against me, I often check the turn and call the river in situations like this, because I find so many people will stab at the river with any two cards if you show weakness, this creates a situation whereby I get paid by far more than I pay off). If he does have me on AK, he should probably invite me to keep bluffing. Or perhaps he knows that I won't reraise an overpair and will still pay him off with the nut nothing.

A few other hands do fit his action, 65 mostly fits, it's a bad call preflop but a bad call that people do make, he doesn't need to raise the turn to defend his hand because it's impossible for anything in my range to outdraw a straight, but he'd get more bets in by checkraising the turn and leading the river. 87 suffers a similar wtf, he should be checkraising that on the turn too. And sets, does this make sense for a set? Better fits are 76 and A7.

In my opinion, the most important action in figuring out what he has is the river bet, this is either a really bad attempt at a bluff or (more likely) he thinks he has the best hand and he made the best hand on the river. I've been quite open about the strength of my hand, so he can't feel good about having 99 here.

Again we have a win one bet lose two bets situation, but it's a little murkier because if he is spacking off he might throw a reraise at me with something I can beat. In a total vacuum, without any idea of whats happening at the table or who this guy is, I'd expect to be good at most about 60% of the time. Not quite enough to raise.

hand 3

This is a valid way to play a 9, and also how he's going to play a king. Blind vs blind we can probably give him, oh lets say, K8 and up, as well as A9 Q9 J9 T9 98 and 97, he can also have 99 and 77. We can pull AK out of his range because he'd reraise preflop, and he might well do the same with KQs and KQo. If we pull AK and leave KQ in until the river when he bin that too, we find ourselves with 37.6% equity on the turn and 32.4% equity on the river. We'd lose money on any bets we make, but still comfortably make money on any of his bets we call.

Of course, he's going to raise with a 9 a fair chunk of the time because there are flush and straight draws in play, but even if we skin his range down to 99 77 97 (boats) and KQ KJ KT K8, we still only have about 69% equity. Just over 30% of his range beats us, that 30% will always 3bet because it's full, the ~69.5% we beat is always going to call down, he doesn't have to have slowplayed a 9 that often for raising to be -EV.

Having said that, I should have raised, because my instinct was he hit the king, but the instaraise spooked me a little because it seemed premeditated which pointed to a 9, so I did the sensible thing and called down.

Kc
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Old Jan 29, 2010, 8:50pm   #5
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First Hand - Is pretty much always a three bet on river for the reasons you said.

Also not sure I like the 3bet on the flop, (is it a bluff or for value)??. I probably call down unimproved after his flop C/R. I dont think you always lose 4bets on the river if your beat, since you can have AQ easily he may flat some smaller boats.

2nd Hand- Its probably a call.

But I usually raise here though since more often then not villian is C/Raising when he improved on the river.
Fairly often I see silly blocking bet from a hand like 99 here that doesnt think you will raise with a QQ type hand after the 2nd 7. So I say fuck him and raise. And again I dont think he is always three betting the river with some of the weaker hands that beat you so you wont always lose two more bets if beat.

3rd Hand- What do you think about a call then C/R on non-diamond rivers?

Last edited by joeyjoejoejr; Jan 29, 2010 at 8:53pm.
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Old Jan 30, 2010, 1:18am   #6
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Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
Also not sure I like the 3bet on the flop, (is it a bluff or for value)??. I probably call down unimproved after his flop C/R. I dont think you always lose 4bets on the river if your beat, since you can have AQ easily he may flat some smaller boats.
He might flat QT or TT but I expect another raise from all but the best 10-20 players. Since he didn't play back on the turn when he should, he's probably not that good.

The flop threebet is essentially a free card play, i'm checking the turn unimproved. Against this player the bet was probably +EV anyway, he was well capable of checkraising a ten or 99 there.

Quote:
2nd Hand- Its probably a call.

But I usually raise here though since more often then not villian is C/Raising when he improved on the river.

Fairly often I see silly blocking bet from a hand like 99 here that doesnt think you will raise with a QQ type hand after the 2nd 7. So I say fuck him and raise.
Blocker bet makes no sense in limit, and I agree, checkraising the river is a good line to take, but he didn't, he led, which is strange whatever he has.

Quote:
And again I dont think he is always three betting the river with some of the weaker hands that beat you so you wont always lose two more bets if beat.
I think everything that beats QQ is reraising. Trips, straights and boats are all reraising 100%.

Quote:
3rd Hand- What do you think about a call then C/R on non-diamond rivers?
I don't think he has diamonds, it's so rare to find a player who doesn't raise a flopped flush draw in position. Finding one that raises the turn instead is even more rare, and I have the king of diamonds.

Kc
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Old Jan 31, 2010, 1:21am   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
He might flat QT or TT but I expect another raise from all but the best 10-20 players. Since he didn't play back on the turn when he should, he's probably not that good.

The flop threebet is essentially a free card play, i'm checking the turn unimproved. Against this player the bet was probably +EV anyway, he was well capable of checkraising a ten or 99 there.




Blocker bet makes no sense in limit, and I agree, checkraising the river is a good line to take, but he didn't, he led, which is strange whatever he has.



I think everything that beats QQ is reraising. Trips, straights and boats are all reraising 100%.



I don't think he has diamonds, it's so rare to find a player who doesn't raise a flopped flush draw in position. Finding one that raises the turn instead is even more rare, and I have the king of diamonds.

Kc
First hand- I hate the free card play with a passion, its just so easy for the villian to play well on river (value bet super light, bluff the river with an optimal frequency and ck fold some decent pairs if the flush completes) I rather 3bet your hand , bet the turn and ck river unimproved then ck turn. But I still prefer just calling down.

Second hand- I agree a blocking bet makes no sense and is a bad play but I have seen a few thousand people do this before

Third hand- If he is raising any draw on the flop he should be raising any two pair or bigger to balance. Therefore, AK is a easy threebet on the turn since he pretty much has a worse K.

If he waits for the turn to semibluff and raise his good hands for value it becomes closer

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Old Jan 31, 2010, 12:01pm   #8
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Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
First hand- I hate the free card play with a passion, its just so easy for the villian to play well on river (value bet super light, bluff the river with an optimal frequency and ck fold some decent pairs if the flush completes) I rather 3bet your hand , bet the turn and ck river unimproved then ck turn. But I still prefer just calling down.
i think the free card play is fine until people realise you're doing it. i rarely have to adjust to be honest, it fits into my style quite neatly.

are you calling the river with ace high? if you're calling to showdown unimproved, it's cheaper to put the threebet in and check turn. if he fourbets he has AK beat, you fold when you miss and lose the same amount (unless this player will fourbet a draw out of position).

Quote:
Second hand- I agree a blocking bet makes no sense and is a bad play but I have seen a few thousand people do this before
sure, it's a mistake people do make, i think you need to know your opponent is prone to this kind of silliness to raise him though, and I would be very surprised if anything that beats queens doesn't reraise.

Quote:
Third hand- If he is raising any draw on the flop he should be raising any two pair or bigger to balance. Therefore, AK is a easy threebet on the turn since he pretty much has a worse K.
Again, people generally should do this but they don't. A seven or a draw is raising the flop, a boat is calling to trap and most 9s are raising to defend. The thing that spooked me was the instant raise, it smelt like a premeditated bet, and he didn't have very long to premeditate raising a king. Like I said in the previous post, he doesn't have to slowplay that many 9s to make the raise -EV.

Kc
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Old Jan 31, 2010, 1:20pm   #9
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: Irrelevant ( $826 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $946 USD )
Seat 2: Irrelevant ( $444 USD )
Seat 3: Irrelevant ( $630 USD )
Seat 1: VILLAIN ( $845 USD )
Seat 6: Irrelevant ( $513 USD )
HERO posts small blind [$5 USD].
Irrelevant posts big blind [$10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Ah ]
Irrelevant folds
Irrelevant folds
HERO raises [$15 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 9d, 7d ]
HERO bets [$10 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$10 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
HERO bets [$20 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$40 USD]
HERO calls [$20 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
HERO checks
VILLAIN bets [$20 USD]
HERO calls [$20 USD]
Think HH it's a little bit strange. Irrelevant in BB should be Villian or?

So first hand.
First I like the freecard 3bet on flop. But also a call and raise by hit on turn should be fine. In my opinion Villian hold KJ. It's the only hand that make sense here. That's why I would raise the river. Only with a special read that villian likes to delay FH I would call.

Second hand.
Would call on river, think villian have 76s or A7s. A raise is overplayed in this spot against unknown.

Third hand.
Line is fine. The raise could be something like Kx or 9x (x<8 ). So make a calldown. 99 or 77 makes for me no sense, cause in a BvB it's a raise preflop .
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Old Jan 31, 2010, 2:16pm   #10
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Think HH it's a little bit strange. Irrelevant in BB should be Villian or?
presumably it should yeah.

Quote:
In my opinion Villian hold KJ. It's the only hand that make sense here.
i love the smell of consensus in the morning, smells like leftover pizza for breakfast.

Quote:
Would call on river, think villian have 76s or A7s. A raise is overplayed in this spot against unknown.
so we agree 2/3, i hope you're a winning player or i'm going to need to re-evaluate my play...

Quote:
Third hand.
Line is fine. The raise could be something like Kx or 9x (x<8 ). So make a calldown. 99 or 77 makes for me no sense, cause in a BvB it's a raise preflop .
I see guys play this both ways, and being blind vs blind rarely seems to effect how people play their medium pairs, a guy who threebets in position will threebet, a guy who flats will flat.

how often do you think a 9 is slowplaying this flop?

Kc
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