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Old May 27, 2010, 7:24pm   #1
Iestyn75
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Default Live tourny, flopped two pair becomes river flush

Played only my 4th ever live tournament last night, a £20 freezout with 69 entrants and a great 10,000 chip starting stack. I went out around the half-way mark (Level 8 I think) when I called a 15-BB all in shove with QQ when down to 13 BB myself and looking to double. He had A5o, flopped two-pair. All in all, I played ok, better than my previous live efforts for sure, but I never really got a run of cards. One hand though from level 2 on which I'd like observation if possible:

Blinds are 50/100 and I've still got 9,850 chips villain has won one small pot without showdown so has 10k and change. I'm dealt Jd8d in the SB and will certainly fold this to any sort of pfr, but three limp in including villain on the cutoff and I complete, BB checks for five to see the flop and a pot of 500.

Flop comes Jh9d8s giving me two pair but a flop which is likely to be of some use to others. I feel I have to bet this to see where I am, quite ready to fold to any really serious action. I bet 300....? right amount?

Three folds, villain calls. So two of us seeing the turn with 1100 in the pot. Turn is the 4d giving me a flush draw to go with my two pair, and I'm very happy with this... and I think oop I have to bet again here (is this right?) I bet 700 into the 1100 and again villain calls. Pot at the river then is 2500 and we've both got another 8K+ behind.

River is Td to complete my flush. Do I check or bet? If bet, how much? and what's my plan if villain now turns aggro?

I'll post what happened in due course but thanks in advance.
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Old May 27, 2010, 8:28pm   #2
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Originally Posted by Iestyn75 View Post
Played only my 4th ever live tournament last night, a £20 freezout with 69 entrants and a great 10,000 chip starting stack. I went out around the half-way mark (Level 8 I think) when I called a 15-BB all in shove with QQ when down to 13 BB myself and looking to double. He had A5o, flopped two-pair. All in all, I played ok, better than my previous live efforts for sure, but I never really got a run of cards. One hand though from level 2 on which I'd like observation if possible:

Blinds are 50/100 and I've still got 9,850 chips villain has won one small pot without showdown so has 10k and change. I'm dealt Jd8d in the SB and will certainly fold this to any sort of pfr, but three limp in including villain on the cutoff and I complete, BB checks for five to see the flop and a pot of 500.

Flop comes Jh9d8s giving me two pair but a flop which is likely to be of some use to others. I feel I have to bet this to see where I am, quite ready to fold to any really serious action. I bet 300....? right amount?

Three folds, villain calls. So two of us seeing the turn with 1100 in the pot. Turn is the 4d giving me a flush draw to go with my two pair, and I'm very happy with this... and I think oop I have to bet again here (is this right?) I bet 700 into the 1100 and again villain calls. Pot at the river then is 2500 and we've both got another 8K+ behind.

River is Td to complete my flush. Do I check or bet? If bet, how much? and what's my plan if villain now turns aggro?

I'll post what happened in due course but thanks in advance.
Good flop bet, decent turn bet. Reads on villain?

The only hands that primarily make sense calling to the river and then raise your bet are some Axsd that hit the flop or got a SD, but no such hands exist due to the board texture and your holding! If Villain plays play Axsd with backdoor FD (AQsd or A7sd) and gutshot, you're in trouble of course.

Another possibility is AKsd, but if he doesn't raise AKs he seems to be retarded, unless he wanted to avoid playing a big pot and simply go for Axs value.

This means that you should often bet the river for value. The range that has you beat is quite narrow, unless Villain is a lagmaniac.

If raised on the river, tank, call and complain silently to yourself about reverse implied odds

EDIT: Villain could be playing some suited kings/queens as well...which widens the have-you-beat range somewhat? K7d, Qxd...I guess

EDIT II: Adding JT and TT into Villain's range is sufficient to get it to almost a flip. (But those hands would raise the flop I guess...?)

19 games 0.005 secs 3,800 games/sec

Board: Jh 9d 8s 4d Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.368% 47.37% 00.00% 9 0.00 { Jd8d }
Hand 1: 52.632% 52.63% 00.00% 10 0.00 { TT, AdKd, AdQd, Ad7d, KdQd, Kd7d, Qd7d, Qd6d, Qd5d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qd2d, JTs, JTo }
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Standard.....no, wait, WTF is going on here?

Last edited by GoldfishUltraDeluxe; May 27, 2010 at 8:40pm.
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Old May 27, 2010, 8:57pm   #3
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Reads on villain?
We've probably seen only 15 hands and each hand has seen different limpers trying to see a cheap flop - I got the sense that the depth of stacks at level 1 (25/50) meant that quite a few were willing to lose 50 or 100 chips without a blink. Hands were being taken down by whoever was prepared to go on the attack at the flop - villain had done so once....this was my first attempt at the same.
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Old May 27, 2010, 9:57pm   #4
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bet and stack off.

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Old May 27, 2010, 10:26pm   #5
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bet and stack off.

Kc
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Old May 28, 2010, 8:53am   #6
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Thanks for the responses, appreciated and respected.

Thought processes during the hand were, as far as I recall:
i) the call on the flop, which was not instant, but not much delayed either, suggested to me a ten, from AT down to T8, with QT the biggest problem but I thought also that being first to act, I was signalling very clearly that I had a hand.

ii) I'm betting out the turn because I'm thinking that if he has got QT then, with the minor exception of QdTd I've got outs to redraw to the winning hand. As far as I'm concerned, my flush draw is completely hidden. At this point, I would expect someone with QTo to raise and try and get more out of me. Is that thinking a little bit too small stakes, which this tourny is of course?? His flat call here convinced me that I was still ahead. I still thought his most likely holding was a ten and had almost persuaded myself that it was JT.

iii) I'm glad to see that everyone above says bet the river, because that's what I did. I thought long and hard about how much I was willing to commit, being very conservative in my reluctance to go out so early when I play live so infrequently. But I did think I'd won the hand, and tried to bet an amount that would get looked up by weaker hands - notably JT and TT and of course the QT if he'd been slow playing all along. I bet 1200, and would have called another 2500 or so on top of that. I don't think I would have called a shove, simply because I wanted more experience for my £20, and I know that's not right.

But for the third time, he called me and I thought therefore that I must have it. I saw his Qd first and was acutally very surprised that his second card was 7d for the flush which beat mine. Goldfish's first edit picked this out.
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Old May 28, 2010, 10:59am   #7
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The villian just hit top pair and chased it down. You may find the 10 on the river also hit him. I think QJ for the straight or J10 for the two pair.

He hasn't got a flush. This is a stack off as KC and Swoop noted.

If he has Jack and some shitty kicker he might fold. But I am expecting to see AJ, KJ, QJ, J10 here. I am not sure if he folds KJ and AJ, depends on the villian.

hell 10/9 or Q9 would not surprise me either. He may also show the low straight, which would be funny.
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Old May 28, 2010, 11:14am   #8
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If he has Jack and some shitty kicker he might fold. But I am expecting to see AJ, KJ, QJ, J10 here. I am not sure if he folds KJ and AJ, depends on the villian.
Glockers, see above. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I thought this had JT written all over it to be honest....but he most certainly had the flush...
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Old May 28, 2010, 1:03pm   #9
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as your attorney, i recommend playing with this opponent as much as possible.

Kc
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Old May 28, 2010, 1:20pm   #10
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as your attorney, i recommend playing with this opponent as much as possible.

Kc
I'd love to, but it was at the Alea in Glasgow, and unfortunately I live in Cardiff.
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