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Old Nov 23, 2010, 3:23pm   #1
Fredrik
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Default KK in position, single suited low card flop.

Is the river a call? Do people 3-barrel on 3-flush boards often enough?

The hand would of course had been easier to play if I had reraised preflop, but I sometimes just call because I think my calling range will be too weak if I always reraise big pairs.


Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
SB ($203)
BB ($203)
UTG ($236)
CO ($349)
Hero ($204)

Dealt to Hero

UTG raises to $6, fold, Hero calls $6, fold, fold

FLOP ($15)

UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10

TURN ($35)

UTG bets $24, Hero calls $24

RIVER ($83)

UTG bets $52,
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Old Nov 23, 2010, 4:58pm   #2
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Flopped flushes, boats and AA beat you, maybe trip 7 if the villain opens wide (any clues on this?), same with 46s hand.

He can be valuebetting KK/QQ/JJ, the last is not too likely but I guess possible. If he had AdKh/AdQx/AdJx hand it's also possible for him to be bluffing. He could decide to turn his 88/99 into a bluff.

Now, I really have trouble counting all these combos, but for that price a hero call looks more attractive than a hero fold.

Last edited by podbelski; Nov 23, 2010 at 5:11pm.
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Old Nov 23, 2010, 5:06pm   #3
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I also beleive there is a lot of room to slowplay monsters pre by flatting IP, I just think you should be looking for more reasons to do that, instead of flatting to purely strengthen your range. Crazy 3bettors left to act? Time to trap. Loose fishes in the blinds? Flat those KK and let them catch something on the flop. Raiser is folding to 3bets a lot? Flat underrepping your hand and valuetown him postflop.

I'm also surprized you didn't even consider raising the flop... do you play it the same way if the flop is low and two-tone? rainbow?
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Old Nov 23, 2010, 5:15pm   #4
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raise pre. don't get cute, just raise it. if you flat you risk letting the blinds in with wide, difficult to pin down ranges, creating a situation where you fuck yourself up more often than you fuck someone else up. secondly, you deny yourself the opportunity to get all in preflop and make it harder to get all in later in the hand. flatting gives up a lot of value.

assuming a standard opening range, he has 19 viable combinations of cards that make a flush or better, plus 6 instances of AA. you need about 30% equity to call here, so you need there to be 11 combinations of hands that you beat to make this profitable. does he have 11 combinations of QQ JJ and AX/KQ with a diamond?

consider also that he can't really bet QQ for value because almost nothing can call (JJ maybe, AdTc maybe), he would be turning his hand into a bluff, and what's he bluffing out? 7X basically, since he doesn't put you on a bigger pair and you're unlikely to fold any flush. so most of those 11 hands are made up of the 18 combinations of big cards in his range that include one diamond. A bunch of those should come at you, as should some of his filth occasionally (if there is any in his range) because you're played the hand so passively that he can put you on the naked ace of diamonds which has to fold.

congrats on turning KK into a bluffcatcher.

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Last edited by killcrazy; Nov 23, 2010 at 5:17pm.
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Old Nov 23, 2010, 7:01pm   #5
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but I sometimes just call because I think my calling range will be too weak if I always reraise big pairs
people already answered your specific hand, but I'd like to get into this. What reason do you have for wanting your button calling range to appear stronger? How does this benefit the type of hands you'll normally play with a call on the button?

Your statement above is pretty blanket and the hand in question would be much different if you were in the BB opting to flat a raise, for example. I'm trying to understand your thought process here.
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Old Nov 23, 2010, 8:48pm   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
I also beleive there is a lot of room to slowplay monsters pre by flatting IP, I just think you should be looking for more reasons to do that, instead of flatting to purely strengthen your range. Crazy 3bettors left to act? Time to trap. Loose fishes in the blinds? Flat those KK and let them catch something on the flop. Raiser is folding to 3bets a lot? Flat underrepping your hand and valuetown him postflop.
I do take all those things into account. I just didn't remember if I did in this hand, so I just mentioned the generic reason to sometimes just call.

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Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
I'm also surprized you didn't even consider raising the flop... do you play it the same way if the flop is low and two-tone? rainbow?
I didn't mention all the things I was considering, but you're actually right that I don't like a flop raise here. The problem with a flop raise is that different players have very different calling ranges there, and if I don't have a pretty good idea what his range is going to be, I'm just setting myself up to make a big mistake on the turn. Anyway, I think against almost all players, if I raise the flop, bet again on the turn and he doesn't fold, I'm behind close to 100% of the time. So it seems that the aggressive line would be for protection only, not for value (unless I have a history of bluff-raising a lot of single-suited flops against the villain).

On the other hand, since calling puts me in an ugly spot too, maybe I should just raise the flop for protection (a pretty big raise, say 3.5-4 times his bet) and fold to any further action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
... do you play it the same way if the flop is low and two-tone? rainbow?
The plan (before the flop) was to call the flop, and raise/call the turn all-in most of the time. I would consider a flop raise instead on some boards where the opponent might be willing to (semi)bluff-reraise the flop. I would favor a flop raise especially on flops where it's hard to tell what he might be drawing to (a straight or a flush).


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Originally Posted by kmay06 View Post
people already answered your specific hand, but I'd like to get into this. What reason do you have for wanting your button calling range to appear stronger? How does this benefit the type of hands you'll normally play with a call on the button?
I like to raise the turn for protection with top pair hands, even when I can't call a 3-bet-shove. I also sometimes raise the turn with draws, so there's a lot in my turn raising range that can't handle a 3-bet.

I have absolutely horrible experiences with just calling when I have, say, ATs after a T flop. I really feel like my opponents are betting strongly on the flop, turn and river 100% of the time, and always have monsters when I call the river, even though they seem to fold 80% of the time when I raise the turn. (Yeah, I know those numbers can't be accurate. I should probably try to find out what they really are).

I also think raising the turn with a flopped top pair that isn't strong enough to comfortably play all in, is better than raising the flop, because you're less likely to get 3-bet-bluffed or 3-bet-semibluffed on the turn, and because you get an extra bet from your opponent before they fold.


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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
raise pre. don't get cute, just raise it. if you flat you risk letting the blinds in with wide, difficult to pin down ranges, creating a situation where you fuck yourself up more often than you fuck someone else up. secondly, you deny yourself the opportunity to get all in preflop and make it harder to get all in later in the hand. flatting gives up a lot of value.
Against some hands, yes, but against most of his range, calling gets more value than a reraise. What I consider the strongest argument against flatting is what what you said about the blinds getting priced in, or at least thinking that they're priced in. When I stopped playing 2/4 about 6 months ago, the blinds were always calling in those spots. So I decided to always reraise my big hands, just as you're suggesting I still should. But I feel that the games have changed a lot since then. The blinds don't call as often as before, and they squeeze more often than before. That probably just means that there are fewer casual players in the games. So I probably still need to reraise almost all the time when the players in the blinds aren't regulars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
assuming a standard opening range, he has 19 viable combinations of cards that make a flush or better, plus 6 instances of AA. you need about 30% equity to call here, so you need there to be 11 combinations of hands that you beat to make this profitable. does he have 11 combinations of QQ JJ and AX/KQ with a diamond?
After his preflop raise, definitely. After his flop bet, very likely. After his turn bet, probably. After the river bet, probably not. He might e.g. be check-calling with JJ-QQ, at least some of the time, to give me a chance to bluff, if he thinks I'm more likely to have AQo with a diamond and bluff, than to have a pair and call again. He might also check-fold some his one-diamond hands some percentage of the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
18 combinations of big cards in his range that include one diamond. A bunch of those should come at you, as should some of his filth occasionally (if there is any in his range) because you're played the hand so passively that he can put you on the naked ace of diamonds which has to fold.
Considering that he might not be willing to bet three times with those hands, or that he might be willing to do it with the Ad hands some of the time but not the Kd hands, I'm still leaning towards a fold.

Thanks for counting the combos by the way.


Results: I called, and lost to 555.
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Old Nov 24, 2010, 3:56pm   #7
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Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
So I probably still need to reraise almost all the time when the players in the blinds aren't regulars.
So, nitty UTG open-raises and you know he will fold everything to a 3bet but KK/AA/AK, maybe QQ. Weak players in the blinds, but you know they will fold anything but premium hands if you 3bet. Isn't it a good spot to flat, so they can be priced in with a lot of strange hands like J8o, 59s, Kxs etc? They have little equity to beat you, but if they hit a pair then likely paying 2 streets.
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Old Nov 24, 2010, 6:26pm   #8
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you should get one street out of them, not two.

but the problem comes when they play back at your underrepped hand. you've let them in with a wide range, you get raised and you now have to decide if he's for real, or trying to take it off you.

the cheaper you let guys in, the wider their range, the harder it is to figure out what they're doing later in the hand. this leads to you making mistakes, folding when you have the best of it, and paying off when you don't.

plus, with KK, you should never even consider a preflop slowplay, unless your opponent is insanely tight when you have the lead and hopelessly spew when he does, because an A comes on the flop around 20% of the time.

Quote:
So, nitty UTG open-raises and you know he will fold everything to a 3bet but KK/AA/AK, maybe QQ.
this player does not exist (he folds jacks? seriously?), and if he does, just threebet the hell out of him.

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Old Nov 24, 2010, 10:34pm   #9
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I don't like the preflop flat much unless there is a super aggro guy in the blinds. If you were UTG+1 against UTG I think the flat would be more standard. From UTG+1 you wont be 3betting light that often and he is more likely to just fold AQ,1010. And of course there are more players left behind to squeeze.

From the BTN yes you want to be able to have stronger hands in your BTN flatting range but it obviously you also want to have them in your 3bet range to. You are going to want to 3bet light on the BTN a decent amount even against UTG so I think you can 3bet KK everytime.

You can flat with enough decently good hands (some that maybe can shove over a squeeze) ie AQ, 99-JJ that I don't think you have to worry much about your calling range being to weak. Yes your overall flating range will behind his but who cares you have the btn.

As played i am sure I would convince myself he is valuebetting worse and snap it off the river but maybe it isnt as clear cut as that.
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Old Nov 24, 2010, 10:41pm   #10
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Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post

I like to raise the turn for protection with top pair hands, even when I can't call a 3-bet-shove. I also sometimes raise the turn with draws, so there's a lot in my turn raising range that can't handle a 3-bet.
If you raise fold the turn a lot that seems like it could potenially be a pretty big leak. I think you know that raising to find out where you are at is generally horrible.
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