THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum

Go Back   PokerTips.org Forums > Strategy > No-Limit Hold'em Ring Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Nov 30, 2010, 11:53pm   #1
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default A few interesting hands from a video

I saw a pretty good Cardrunners video today, and I'd like to discuss a few hands from that video. This was a 5/10 6-max video, by a new instructor, Nicolak.



Hand 1: UTG vs. UTG+1. Raise KJo. Cbet 40 into 72 (642 rainbow). On the turn (A) he fires another barrel, 110 into 172, saying that he expects a lot of folds, from hands like 65.

Comments: Do people call a raise utg+1 with 65s? Do the the players that do that fold the turn? I doubt it. I also doubt that any pocket pair will fold. Maybe 88 and 77. I also think he's often screwed by an A that floated the flop, especially since he bet small on the flop. Should he had bet bigger on the flop? Then what? How about once in a while making a pretty big check-raise here instead of a cbet?



Hand 2: BTN vs. CO. Cutoff raises. Call with 99 (one of them a h). Call again (5h 3h 4d). Check-behind (A). Raise to 500 when villain bets 130 into 172 on the river (Qh, three h on the board).

Comments: Does the opponent fold an A often enough for the river bluff to be profitable? I think it's also interesting that almost every possible turn card makes it less likely that our hand is good. I think that means that it's better to fold the flop than to call without a plan. So is there a plan that makes the call profitable? How are we planning to deal with the various situations that may arise?



Hand 3: SB vs. BB. Hero opens with T8o and bets every street. (K92 rainbow, 66). The river bet is 300 into 350.

Comment: He said that the villain isn't likely to have a really strong hand, and that he expects a reg to fold more than half the time on the river. The main reason was that it doesn't look like he has many bluffs in his range. He also indicated that he expects a 9x hand to fold the turn, and maybe even a hand like K3s. I don't think a 9 folds the turn, I think a K is more likely than a 9 on every street, and I doubt that we get enough folds from the Kx hands.



Hand 4: CO vs. BB. Raise QJs. The BB reraises. Hero calls. Villain cbets (J94 with two d). Hero calls. Villain checks the turn (4d). Hero half pots it with the intention of calling a shove.

Comment: I think the villain is checking to give up a lot, and that he's not check-shoving an unpaired Ad hand often enough to justify a call. And I still think betting is better than calling and re-evaluating the river, because at this point it's very hard to guess what a river bet might mean. Also, a check is giving a free card to a single d.



Hand 5: CO vs. BTN. 97o. Bet (J92 rainbow). Bet (6). Bet 300 into 350. (T).

Comment: I'm folding preflop, but I'll raise 97s, so I can still end up in an equivalent situation. On the turn he says "to get him to fold better nines". He says he'll usually check-fold the river, but the T changes his mind, because the possible open-ended straight draws just made a pair. He also argues that it looks like he doesn't have many bluffs in his range. Do we really get enough folds from Jx? Every two pair hand will of course call.

Last edited by Fredrik; Dec 01, 2010 at 10:37am.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Dec 01, 2010, 12:11am   #2
Loder89
Gambler
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rosenheim
Posts: 1,634
Reputation: 1858
Loder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant futureLoder89 has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
I saw a pretty good Cardrunners video today, and I'd like to discuss a few hands from that video. This was a 5/10 6-max video, by a new instructor, Nicolak.



Hand 1: UTG vs. UTG+1. Raise KJo. Cbet 40 into 72 (642 rainbow). On the turn (A) he fires another barrel, 110 into 172, saying that he expects a lot of folds, from hands like 65.

Comments: Do people call a raise utg+1 with 65s? Do the the players that do that fold the turn? I doubt it. I also doubt that any pocket pair will fold. Maybe 88 and 77. I also think he's often screwed by an A that floated the flop, especially since he bet small on the flop. Should he had bet bigger on the flop? Then what? How about once in a while making a pretty big check-raise here instead of a cbet?

I am not that happy with the Turnbarrel. But I actually think KJ is a pretty decent hand to fire since you certainly have FE and you have 6 Outs pretty often.


Hand 2: BTN vs. CO. Cutoff raises. Call with 99 (one of them a h). Call again (5h 3h 4d). Check-behind (A). Raise to 500 when villain bets 130 into 172 on the river (Qh, three h on the board).

Comments: Does the opponent fold an A often enough for the river bluff to be profitable? I think it's also interesting that almost every possible turn card makes it less likely that our hand is good. I think that means that it's better to fold the flop than to call without a plan. So is there a plan that makes the call profitable? How are we planning to deal with the various situations that may arise?

I doubt he is trying to fold out an Ace since CO almost never has one when he doens't bet the Turn. He probably tries to get him off a better Pair. Not sure if I like it since he repping nothing aswell...


Hand 3: SB vs. BB. Hero opens with T8o and bets every street. (K92 rainbow, 66). The river bet is 300 into 350.

Comment: He said that the villain isn't likely to have a really strong hand, and that he expects a reg to fold more than half the time on the river. The main reason was that it doesn't look like he has many bluffs in his range. He also indicated that he expects a 9x hand to fold the turn, and maybe even a hand like K3s. I don't think a 9 folds the turn, I think a K is more likely than a 9 on every street, and I doubt that we get enough folds from the Kx hands.

I hate the Riverbet especially when he figures him to fold the Turn w 9x! Nobody is folding a K there in my experience. That being said. T8 is pretty much the bottom of our Range so it is probably ok to bluff. I still think giving up is better.


Hand 4: CO vs. BB. Raise QJs. The BB reraises. Hero calls. Villain cbets (J94 with two d). Hero half pots the turn (4d) with the intention of calling a shove.

Comment: I think the villain is checking to give up a lot, and that he's not check-shoving an unpaired Ad hand often enough to justify a call. And I still think betting is better than calling and re-evaluating the river, because at this point it's very hard to guess what a river bet might mean. Also, a check is giving a free card to a single d.

Not really sure about that one. We need a better player than me.


Hand 5: CO vs. BTN. 97o. Bet (J92 rainbow). Bet (6). Bet 300 into 350. (T).

Comment: On the turn he says "to get him to fold better nines". He says he'll usually check-fold the river, but the T changes his mind, because the possible open-ended straight draws just made a pair. He also argues that it looks like he doesn't have many bluffs in his range. Do we really get enough folds from Jx? Every two pair hand will of course call.

I like that hand. If our opponent can hand read he should probably fold Jx on the River since we have so many strong hands in our Range and the only chance we are bluffing is if we happen to turn a hand into a bluff as he does here. On the Turn he can get called by worse and might even fold out some better 9x. Looks ok imo.
.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badman View Post
Why would you fold any pre-flop hand. There is always a chance that you might get a gutshot. So why would you fold?
Loder89 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 9:46am   #3
BubbleBoy
BubbleBoy
 
BubbleBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: BubbleBoy
Posts: 11,484
Reputation: 28914
BubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond repute
This member received this PokerTips Exclamation Mark for one of a number of reasons: blogging, winning a contest, contributing great content, etc. Keep an eye out for chances to receive one of these by your profile!
Default

eh 1 hand / thread pls and put down stack sizes and stuff

5th hand, turn is very mergy, I dont like it, but it's OK. on the river he has almost no sd value and can rep a ton of value hands, I think that's a good bluff.
__________________

BubbleBoy est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 10:33am   #4
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

The stack sizes were 100 bb in all of these hands. Regarding the "and stuff", I think I included the relevant information. For example, if the table had been 3-handed at the time, I would have said so. Since this was a video, we don't have solid reads on anyone. There were a few players at the tables that he could quickly label as "fish", but none of these hands were played against them.

Last edited by Fredrik; Dec 01, 2010 at 10:41am.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 12:05pm   #5
podbelski
Doyle Look-alike
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 293
Reputation: 402
podbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nice
Default

Post some hands for the stakes you are currently playing IMO
podbelski est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 1:25pm   #6
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

I'm not currently playing. It's going to take some time to get more money into my poker accounts. OK, I've been playing a few hands of 0.25/0.50 hands HU when I've been bored, but that doesn't really count. I also don't think the regs at 1/2 play significantly different than the regs at 5/10, at least not in spots like these. If there's a significant difference, it's in how they adjust.

I guess I could dig out a few hands from the database. Maybe later.

Last edited by Fredrik; Dec 01, 2010 at 1:28pm.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 4:53pm   #7
BubbleBoy
BubbleBoy
 
BubbleBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: BubbleBoy
Posts: 11,484
Reputation: 28914
BubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBubbleBoy has a reputation beyond repute
This member received this PokerTips Exclamation Mark for one of a number of reasons: blogging, winning a contest, contributing great content, etc. Keep an eye out for chances to receive one of these by your profile!
Default

k fair enough, still too much for one thread imo. what matters though are the raises sizes pre too.. some ppl minraise some 3.5x, and that creates different ranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Hand 1: UTG vs. UTG+1. Raise KJo. Cbet 40 into 72 (642 rainbow). On the turn (A) he fires another barrel, 110 into 172, saying that he expects a lot of folds, from hands like 65.
KJo UTG is most likely too loose. unless you have a big edge on the other players (read 1 huge or 2 normal fish in the game)

cbet size is too small for my taste unless he assumes villain is not fighting for pots and will just fold on the flop or turn with like AQ.

turn bet is obv fine, often going for the third one too. his UTG range shouldnt have too much air there, so bluffing everytime you have air is ok. which comes back to opening KJo UTG, when you do that you obv cannot bet the turn every single time. But Id open more like KQs-T9s,Axs,AJo+,pairs, and then bluffing all the suited broadways balances nicely with the Ax and QQ Id vbet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Comments: Do people call a raise utg+1 with 65s? Do the the players that do that fold the turn? I doubt it. I also doubt that any pocket pair will fold. Maybe 88 and 77. I also think he's often screwed by an A that floated the flop, especially since he bet small on the flop. Should he had bet bigger on the flop? Then what? How about once in a while making a pretty big check-raise here instead of a cbet?
people dont call 65s there, at least it would be very loose and bad. yeah he targets more like 33 55 77-QQ on the turn, which are in a bad spot and a very big part of villains range for calling pre.

of course U+1 can have AK AQ AJ, but I think he has pairs that fold at least 25% of the time, which makes double barreling at least OK.

check raise as PFR on that board in these positions? would be a very strange play. not necessarily bad but difficult to implement. would have to be a range of a few overpairs, few sets, few KQ/KJ type hands and a few 87s/A5s gutter type hands. I dont think the c/r should be big if you ever c/r there though.
__________________

BubbleBoy est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 8:43pm   #8
podbelski
Doyle Look-alike
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 293
Reputation: 402
podbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loder89 View Post
Hand 2: BTN vs. CO. Cutoff raises. Call with 99 (one of them a h). Call again (5h 3h 4d). Check-behind (A). Raise to 500 when villain bets 130 into 172 on the river (Qh, three h on the board).

Comments: Does the opponent fold an A often enough for the river bluff to be profitable? I think it's also interesting that almost every possible turn card makes it less likely that our hand is good. I think that means that it's better to fold the flop than to call without a plan. So is there a plan that makes the call profitable? How are we planning to deal with the various situations that may arise?

I doubt he is trying to fold out an Ace since CO almost never has one when he doens't bet the Turn. He probably tries to get him off a better Pair. Not sure if I like it since he repping nothing aswell...

He said he's trying to fold AK/AQ/AJ and even QQ! And the reason is the opp could have only the nut flush (if he has a flush), or a hand that in his eyes should be folded to a raise since hero plays flushes this way.

IMO the move is nice if you are confident the opp is a thinking player capable of doing hero folds.. and he must play the turn "optimally", letting the hero assume everything he did about the opp's turn play

Last edited by podbelski; Dec 01, 2010 at 8:48pm.
podbelski est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 9:17pm   #9
podbelski
Doyle Look-alike
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 293
Reputation: 402
podbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nicepodbelski is just really nice
Default

Hand 3, I can't critisize the hand cause I don't know how likely a reg is folding a K on the river etc. But IMO he could have some weak drawing hand, like backdoored diamonds with high card > then hero's T (or worse but the opp was going to bet the river if hero checks). Maybe this adds up a little to say the bluff is at least ok

Last edited by podbelski; Dec 01, 2010 at 9:19pm.
podbelski est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2010, 10:15pm   #10
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
He said he's trying to fold AK/AQ/AJ and even QQ! And the reason is the opp could have only the nut flush (if he has a flush), or a hand that in his eyes should be folded to a raise since hero plays flushes this way.
That's right. I almost forgot about that. I was careful to include what I considered relevant information about the hands, but I didn't include all the details from the explanations.

I think I like the river raise. I'm actually more concerned about the flop call in this hand (hand 2). I feel that we're committing ourselves to calling at least one more bet after that, or at least turning it into a bluff just about every time we can represent something. I don't think 99 is good enough to call just because we're ahead of the villain's range on the flop. We're not going to be ahead on later streets; the best we can hope for when we take a loose-passive line is to have pot odds to call again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
k fair enough, still too much for one thread imo.
OK, I'll start more threads next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
what matters though are the raises sizes pre too.. some ppl minraise some 3.5x, and that creates different ranges.
The preflop raises were 3x.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
KJo UTG is most likely too loose. unless you have a big edge on the other players (read 1 huge or 2 normal fish in the game)
I don't know about that. I've heard that comment from other people, but I find KJo quite easy to play utg (6-handed). I play QJo too, but not KTo. I don't have a large enough sample to really know if it's profitable in the long run, but I'm showing a profit so far. On the other hand, I see now that I've lost a lot of money with AQs and AJo (and is about breakeven with AQo and AJs). I don't know if this indicates that I've been overplaying these better hands or if it's just a sample size thing.

I think I will continue to play high card hands as weak as QJo utg until I see some statistical indication that I shouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
turn bet is obv fine, often going for the third one too. his UTG range shouldnt have too much air there, so bluffing everytime you have air is ok. which comes back to opening KJo UTG, when you do that you obv cannot bet the turn every single time. But Id open more like KQs-T9s,Axs,AJo+,pairs, and then bluffing all the suited broadways balances nicely with the Ax and QQ Id vbet.
This is good stuff. I especially liked the comment about how the opening range can change how often we should bluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
people dont call 65s there, at least it would be very loose and bad. yeah he targets more like 33 55 77-QQ on the turn, which are in a bad spot and a very big part of villains range for calling pre.

of course U+1 can have AK AQ AJ, but I think he has pairs that fold at least 25% of the time, which makes double barreling at least OK.
I think you're right. Floats with AK-AJ aren't that common (I think) utg+1. It happens a lot more on the button and in the blinds. This looks like a spot where I should increase my bluffing frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
check raise as PFR on that board in these positions? would be a very strange play. not necessarily bad but difficult to implement. would have to be a range of a few overpairs, few sets, few KQ/KJ type hands and a few 87s/A5s gutter type hands. I dont think the c/r should be big if you ever c/r there though.
By "pretty big", I meant something like 3.5x instead of 2.5x. I don't really do that utg. I've been experimenting with it in cutoff vs. button situations, but I don't know if I like it yet. It seems like it might be a good line to take with both good and bad hands, in situations where the opponent is likely to bet if I check. But the stacks should probably be a bit deeper, so that a turn shove would be around 70% of the pot instead of 55%. (I'm not saying that I would bet the river every time, but if I can't do it most of the time, either as a bluff or for value, I probably shouldn't C/R the flop in the first place).
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 8:49pm. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.