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Old Jul 18, 2012, 12:44am   #11
killcrazy
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As a floor I probably rule you all in.
really?

TD's ruling is optimal imo. a warning for the guy who was all in is also in order; his hands have no business being anywhere near chips in the pot.

Kc
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 1:45am   #12
joeyjoejoejr
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
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Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
As a floor I probably rule you all in.
really?

TD's ruling is optimal imo. a warning for the guy who was all in is also in order; his hands have no business being anywhere near chips in the pot.

Kc
Yeah I change my mind. Based on the dealer intiating the floor involvement.
A lot of what I would decide would be dependent on what I hear from the dealer. Ie was all in announced clearly? Did he actually have the chips covered with his hands? I probably factor in the actual physical amount of chips. Was it 4 high value chips underneath his hands or three stacks. If goldfish was the one that demanded the floor I likely rule him all in unless I get clear confirmation from the dealer that villian was covering his chips.

Of course Dealer is partially to blame here. He should be annoucing the amount to call not just that the action is on him.

What do you think about the WSOP hand?
And how would you rule if Baumann snap called?
I think she calls koroknai before he mucks he has to be all in.

And finally have you seen this thread? Possibly the worst rulling in the history of poker....
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ition-1220150/
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 3:56am   #13
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
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Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
As a floor I probably rule you all in.
really?

TD's ruling is optimal imo. a warning for the guy who was all in is also in order; his hands have no business being anywhere near chips in the pot.

Kc
Yeah I change my mind. Based on the dealer intiating the floor involvement.
shouldn't really matter who it is calls for the floor. in both cases hero clearly thought he was calling the blinds, not a shove. in practise it likely does make a difference, but it shouldn't. there's no way hero can be shooting an angle here.

another point; this is unreconstructable, but when he says "call" matters. speech doesn't overrule motion. people seem to think it does because they've all heard the phrase "verbal action is binding", what they don't seem to appreciate is that all action is binding. in the event of an ambiguous action, the player should be asked to disambiguate.

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Of course Dealer is partially to blame here. He should be annoucing the amount to call not just that the action is on him.
was going to bring this up, yes. dealer should be announcing all action and telling players how much it is to them in turn.

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What do you think about the WSOP hand?
i'm astounded that someone who's won a major could do something so spectacularly retarded in the main event.

but yeah, i heard about this, and the short answer is, i'd probably rule the same way. wherever possible, the game should be decided by the play. this should be the guiding principle of anyone who officiates any kind of contest.

from what little we know, it seems that krorksdrka made a genuine mistake and didn't realise there was someone else in the hand. it's certainly hard to imagine anyone trying this as a move, even if he only realised she was live while the BB was considering his action.

something i think is being overlooked; if korbolls was oblivious to baumann's raise then he (presumably) wouldn't have made that reraise, ergo she wouldn't have been in a position to win those chips anyway...additionally, it's hard to not be biased by her having kings. if she had 74 there would be less wailing and gnashing of teeth going on.

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And how would you rule if Baumann snap called?
trickier, because now there is an order of events problem. if everything happened too fast for anyone to be able to say, then i guess my original ruling stands.

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I think she calls koroknai before he mucks he has to be all in.
well. yeah. ldo.

additionally, good chance there was sloppy dealer work at fault here too. in addition to our complaints in OP's hand, it should be noted that the dealer has a responsibility to protect all live cards on his table.

we can revisit this once it's shown on tv perhaps.

Quote:
And finally have you seen this thread? Possibly the worst rulling in the history of poker....
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ition-1220150/
yeah. the joke was pretty bad and he should be penalised for intentionally exposing cards, but i don't think he needed to be fined $7000.

Kc
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 6:14pm   #14
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I assume many have seen this by now, somewhat similar to your hand:

Baumann in particular may be feeling a little hard done by given a hand which occurred in Day 4 which ought (more than likely) to have sent one of the current chip leaders (second placed Andras Koroknai) to the rail and bumped Baumann up the rankings. The hand in question was controversial to say the least. When play reached Koroknai in said hand he announced all in and shoved all his remaining chips into the pot, then, thinking his opponents had folded mucked his hand. However, Baumann, who had initially min-raised was in fact still in the pot. In their wisdom the floor decided that as the hand was dead that Baumann should only receive 60k (the amount she had raised to preflop) from her opponent. As it turned out, Baumann, who had her opponent covered, had pocket kings and in all likelihood had her opponent crushed. What must be doubly frustrating for Baumann is that it was Koroknai who eventually busted her in 10th place, just a couple of hands after she had doubled up to over 5 million. Incidentally it was Koroknai who also put out Elisabeth Hille in a seven million chip pot where his 77 outlasted Hille's AhQh all in pre-flop.

I am of opinion that rules should be bent went the intent of the player is clear but still the player has responsibilty to follow the action.

A crucial difference between the hands is you still had cards.
As a floor I probably rule you all in.
Not as sure what I would do as the floor in the WSOP hand.

Also - dont limp the BTN
I think the WSOP hand is a bit different because Koroknai apparently made a decision to raise all-in rather than making a mistake which was intended to be a small bet. The worst thing was that he mucked his cards before the dealer announced that the hand was over or started to push chips towards Koroknai. He also to some extent destroyed the possibility to retain a structured deal about how to resolve the situation. I also think that Baumann did not cover her chips.

About limping...
I think I called a bet about 5 times that tournament and it occasionally made a player so anxious about my holding that he would stand up and put one palm to the cheek. The guy UTG asked me about my hole cards but I only said that I had two live cards. I'm ~85% sure he had a pair below the lowest rank of my lowest hole card, so we were essentially at a flip.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 6:16pm   #15
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Yeah I change my mind. Based on the dealer intiating the floor involvement.
A lot of what I would decide would be dependent on what I hear from the dealer. Ie was all in announced clearly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
Did he actually have the chips covered with his hands?
Before I did anything I had a look around the table to see whether anyone had raised, since I needed to know that to act properly. I saw no chips so I assumed in good faith that calling the big blind was a proper move.

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If goldfish was the one that demanded the floor I likely rule him all in unless I get clear confirmation from the dealer that villian was covering his chips.
I was mostly chocked and confused and I knew I had said "call" so I was ready to be forced to put my chips in the middle. The dealer demanded the floor.

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And how would you rule if Baumann snap called?
I think she calls koroknai before he mucks he has to be all in.
Baumann has no reason to think that she must insta-call because Koroknai is about to muck his cards. This is another difference form the two hands, as one
player acted to (unintentionally?) prevent a future action from another player in the WSOP hand.
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