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Old Sep 04, 2013, 3:45pm   #11
feudallord
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Hey I'll read your post when I get home since I'm supposed to be working but, this is "day 4" as I like to track it for me. Last friday I deposited 20 and now I'm in a safe zone, in terms of building a firm bankroll, for me anyway.

If down...I'd like to post some hands, both big wins and losses, to get objective opinion on how I could have made more money or reduced how much I lost, respectively.

I want this to work more than ever and although biased it is my opinion and belief that my game has improved tremendously. Last night I won nearly 20 dollars by bluffing 90 % of my hands that missed on the flop, granted I was lucky that no one else hit anything but I capitalized on what I anticipated as weakness.

I feel like my cash game is not only pretty good right now but improving as well. My tournament game needs work...two days ago I busted before the break, last night I was doing very well with a peak of 13k at 75/150....and called off over half to a rivered str8...I will post that hand later when home.

This is a 2 dollar buy in to a 1k guaranteed. For the first time in the past 2 years I have decided to act on some of the advice kc and swoop have given me, primarily having to do with bankroll management. Where I'm at now, there's no need to take unnecessary risks by for example buying into a table way above what my current roll can handle.

The hand that shot me up to the safe zone was epic. I bought in for 60 at 1/2. Yup, it was all I had left too. Couple of hands get folded, then I get KJ in SB, and I face a raise from UTG+1 to 10 dollars. I called after deliberating, partly because I had folded weaker but similar type hands to a ten dollar raise in the previous hands, so I decided to give this one a try.

I'm sb remember...so flop comes out:

K 8 3 (two hearts, don't remember which ones)

So I hit my king and I have 49 left. I bet 8.47, and it goes call call.

Now, when it goes call call, I said to myself, in a pot that's already 31 preflop, and the flop hits king high board, if there was a KQ, AA, or AK, there would probably be a raise like 80% or more of the time, unless I was against a super sneaky slow play. I remember the initial raiser had like 650 in front of him too.

So at this point I said, if my king is strong enough and not beaten, theN I am against pairs under it and/or a flush draw.

The turn was a 6, not a heart.

Here I was very nervous regardless of the fact that so far the action said I was in good shape. At this point I bet 16 and change, it goes call, but then the 650 stack initial raiser raised to like 40, taking me all in. So I went all in, and the other guy called.

The river was another 8, not a heart.

I was shitting my pants at this point and did not think I was going to win bc of the action on the turn, but felt that because it was call on the flop I may have had a chance.

They both checked the river, and at showdown they both mucked their cards.

The cool thing about bovada is that, if you reach showdown, you can see your opponents hole cards in hand history, only if the hand reached showdown though, and I thought it would be very beneficial to see what I was against.

As it was, the 650 stack initial raiser had JJ, and that guy who kept calling had the hearts, specifically, A6 of hearts.

Now I was very curious afterward about my percentage and chances of winning against those two hands on the flop. JJ was in the gutter, but A6 had a whopping 46% chance against me, only going down to like 30% on the turn. It was nearly a coinflip and I'm very lucky to have tripled up in that hand.

Thoughts?

Last edited by feudallord; Sep 04, 2013 at 4:19pm.
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Old Sep 04, 2013, 8:32pm   #12
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by feudallord View Post
Last night I won nearly 20 dollars by bluffing 90 % of my hands that missed on the flop, granted I was lucky that no one else hit anything but I capitalized on what I anticipated as weakness.
congratulations, you have discovered continuation betting.

Quote:
I feel like my cash game is not only pretty good right now
no, it isn't, and if you actually want to get good, you need to completely abandon this notion that you are anything other than worm food.

when the oracle at delphi told chaerephon there was no man wiser than socrates, socrates himself remained unmoved, insisting that he possessed no wisdom. he set about interviewing the wisest men in athens, concluding that not only were they wholly ignorant, they were also ignorant of their ignorance.

right now you are one of the wisest men in athens.

Quote:
Where I'm at now, there's no need to take unnecessary risks by for example buying into a table way above what my current roll can handle.
you know what would be really funny? if the next thing you said was about how you bought into a table way above what your current roll can handle.

Quote:
The hand that shot me up to the safe zone was epic. I bought in for 60 at 1/2. Yup, it was all I had left too.
awesome.

i can't begin to describe how much of a dog you are in an online 1/2 NLHE game.

Quote:
Couple of hands get folded, then I get KJ in SB
fold.

Quote:
and I face a raise from UTG+1
FOLD!

Quote:
to 10 dollars.
MOTHER OF DICKCUNTS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY FOLD!

Quote:
I called


Quote:
after deliberating, partly because I had folded weaker but similar type hands to a ten dollar raise in the previous hands, so I decided to give this one a try.
that isn't how you should make decisions. play every hand on merit. can KJ in the SB stand an early position raise to 5BB? absolutely not.

Quote:
I'm sb remember
oh, i remember.

Quote:
...so flop comes out:

K 8 3 (two hearts, don't remember which ones)

So I hit my king and I have 49 left. I bet 8.47, and it goes call call.
there are two other guys in this hand now?

and you bet less than a third of the pot...right, fine, aye, moving on.

Quote:
Now, when it goes call call, I said to myself, in a pot that's already 31 preflop, and the flop hits king high board, if there was a KQ, AA, or AK, there would probably be a raise like 80% or more of the time unless I was against a super sneaky slow play.
they should raise. you've got fuck all chips which helps.

Quote:
So at this point I said, if my king is strong enough and not beaten, theN I am against pairs under it and/or a flush draw.
when your bet gets called it usually means your opponent has a piece of the flop, correct.

Quote:
The turn was a 6, not a heart.

Here I was very nervous regardless of the fact that so far the action said I was in good shape.
you were nervous for some combination of three reasons

(i) you recognise you were playing well above the stakes you should have been
(ii) you realise (on some level) that you have embroiled yourself in an unfavourable situation
(iii) you have an anxiety disorder

Quote:
At this point I bet 16 and change, it goes call, but then the 650 stack initial raiser raised to like 40, taking me all in. So I went all in, and the other guy called.
i'm not in love with a bet here. i don't like the flop bet either.

lets rewind to the flop. and lets simplify things and just pretend its a heads up spot between you and the raiser so i can maybe be instructive without things being too complicated.

his range of hands is comprised of:

1. made hands that beat you
2. made hands you beat (eg KT, QQ, etc)
3. flush draws
4. wank

what does he do with these hands if you bet, what does he do with them if you check?

if you lead out, he should raise all of the hands that beat you, some of the hands you beat, and some of his flush draws. he will call the rest, and fold all his wank. you're in okay shape against this range; if he bets enough of his draws it's pretty close to being a coinflip. so lets be supernice and say that one way or another you get all in with his connected range, his fluff all gets out of the way, and this line completely breaks even.

if you check to him, he will bet his full range. let's say his full range is 20% of all hands. if you checkraise shove here he will call you with something in the region of 7% of all hands (i don't have pokerstove on this computer so the numbers might be slightly off but not by much).

we're in a very similar spot to leading out if all the money goes in. we're a smallish dog to his range, probably in the region of 40-45% equity. here's the important bit though; he's going to continuation bet around 7.5BB and fold to your raise with all his fluff, that makes up about 2/3 of all possible situations...effective stacks are only 25BB when the flop is dealt, with 10BB in the middle, lets look at the numbers:

betting: like i said before, we're just going to call this a coinflip (you're actually a small dog) and say that betting is EV neutral.

checkraising: 2/3 of the time you win the 10 (5 of which was put in by you) in the middle and the 7.5 he put in. 1/3 of the time you're going to have around 40% equity in a 60BB pot, on average you will come out of it with 24BB, so you're losing 6BB on the hand...2/3 of the time you win 12.5BB, 1/3 of the time you lose 6BB, your average overall profit on the hand by checkraising is therefore (12.5*0.67)-(6*0.33) = 8.4 - 2 = win 6.4BB...

that's a bit scribbly because i'm in a rush. and the values i used throughout were approximate, but the disparity between the two lines is so big that it's pretty clear checkraising is better.

you get what i'm saying here and how i've come to this conclusion? repeating it in your own words to make sure might be a good idea.

Quote:
The river was another 8, not a heart.
mmkay

Quote:
I was shitting my pants at this point
you know when the last time i shit my pants was?

march 18th 2004.

the one thing i learnt from the experience? not to celebrate st patrick's day in dublin

Quote:
and did not think I was going to win bc of the action on the turn, but felt that because it was call on the flop I may have had a chance.
on the turn there is a lot to be said for checking. people aren't going to bet much that you can beat; they're going to take the free card with their flush draws and hope to check to showdown with weak made hands. if they do bet at you, you can probably fold pretty comfortably.

Quote:
They both checked the river, and at showdown they both mucked their cards.
tbh it sounds like you were very fortunate here. i'm guessing that they both had flush draws or perhaps KT.

Quote:
The cool thing about bovada is that, if you reach showdown, you can see your opponents hole cards in hand history, only if the hand reached showdown though, and I thought it would be very beneficial to see what I was against.
standard for online poker.

Quote:
As it was, the 650 stack initial raiser had JJ, and that guy who kept calling had the hearts, specifically, A6 of hearts.
or they could get attached to a hand like QQ-JJ, yeah.

Quote:
Now I was very curious afterward about my percentage and chances of winning against those two hands on the flop. JJ was in the gutter, but A6 had a whopping 46% chance against me, only going down to like 30% on the turn. It was nearly a coinflip and I'm very lucky to have tripled up in that hand.
very lucky is the phrase i would use. actually i said very fortunate because fortunate is a nice work and luck is kinda ugly.

Thoughts?[/quote]

right now my thoughts are, this chicken might be past its best, but i'm too lazy to make another sandwich.

Kc
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Old Sep 05, 2013, 10:26pm   #13
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Old Sep 09, 2013, 3:01am   #14
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I pretty much agree with everything in KC's post except for the checkraise the flop part although it's still better than how you played the hand. The more I think about it the more I don't mind his line assuming your preflop call, although the correct thing to do is to fold preflop. To be honest I probably just checkcall flop and checkcall all-in on the turn most of the time and value bet the river if the turn is checked around if I have to take your preflop line. Check-shove flop is probably the next best option, although when you get called you won't be in amazing shape. Fold preflop is better than both lines. Calling preflop is beyond awful against a 5bb early position raise with KJ out of position. When you put one sixth of your stack in preflop you were against A6s and JJ with KJo. KJo is the worst of those three hands, you were less than 30% to win the pot 3 way which is a bad thing especially out of position.

The part about using better bankroll management then you buy into a game you're a big underdog in with your whole roll of 30 big blinds is hilarious

Your cash game is not pretty good right now

It might be good at 1c/2c stakes, or maybe even 2c/5c. It is certainly not good at $1/2, you will be the worst player (not below average, I mean actually the worst) at most of the tables you sit at. You should not be playing 1/2 with a roll of less than a few thousand dollars even if you were significantly better at poker than you are.
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Old Sep 09, 2013, 1:21pm   #15
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I pretty much agree with everything in KC's post except for the checkraise the flop part although it's still better than how you played the hand. The more I think about it the more I don't mind his line assuming your preflop call, although the correct thing to do is to fold preflop.
undefined pronoun in the bagging area. who is "his" in that sentence?

Quote:
To be honest I probably just checkcall flop and checkcall all-in on the turn most of the time and value bet the river if the turn is checked around if I have to take your preflop line.
check the stacks and pot; (i'm holding out for a) hero ('til the end of the night) starts with 30BB and puts 5 of it in pre. if we check to the raiser who cbets, other dude folds, then the raise portion of our checkraise is 17.5BB into a pot of 30BB. we get called wider than is going to bet the turn.

one way or another all the money goes in against AA, KX and sets, so the question is which line is best against QQ/JJ and flush draws. answer is definitely to shove; shoving here looks weaker than shoving the river in QQ/JJ's case because, apart from anything else, we have flush draws in our range. speaking of which, his missed flush draws just fold (or have filled) on the river, and we're quite happy for them to play with us at 1:1 bet odds on the flop. we can also get some cards come off to either queer our action or outdraw us vs the fluff that folds (A7x hits the ace, small pairs trip, runner runner straight/flush etc).

Quote:
Check-shove flop is probably the next best option, although when you get called you won't be in amazing shape.
you'll be about 40-45%. didn't you see? there was math!

Quote:
Calling preflop is beyond awful against a 5bb early position raise with KJ out of position. When you put one sixth of your stack in preflop you were against A6s and JJ with KJo. KJo is the worst of those three hands, you were less than 30% to win the pot 3 way which is a bad thing especially out of position.
way worse than that. the hooks are dead remember, that makes it like 24-25%.

Quote:
It might be good at 1c/2c stakes, or maybe even 2c/5c. It is certainly not good at $1/2, you will be the worst player (not below average, I mean actually the worst) at most of the tables you sit at. You should not be playing 1/2 with a roll of less than a few thousand dollars even if you were significantly better at poker than you are.
the 1/2 regs i know all have effective bankrolls of $10k+. a $5k swing at those stakes is pretty standard.

Kc
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Old Sep 09, 2013, 5:29pm   #16
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Haha, that shitting part made me lol.

What do you guys mean by "line?"

As it is, bovada closed my account last week because I'm living in NY atm, with the cash inside hah. I lost my mind a bit over the weekend and spent way too much money. My next step is to try out the live games that happen in the city, or goto an actual casino where its legal. I bought in for 50 3 times on two different sites that I'm not fond of, my addiction is pretty bad. Each of those times I doubled my money, one of those times I doubled the money, took the 100 to a 1/2 table, and turned a straight against AJ and doubled it immediately. Afterward I tried to do br management with a br of 200 you can safely buy in for 10, but the low stakes games no matter how hard I try I play too loose unlike how I play in higher stakes game because of impatients and wanting to win money fast. The other thing is that even if I double my money in these online sites I never feel like the money is accessible. I only felt that way with bovada because they paid me the following day and that seems to be the trend at the moment. If I were to double my money at a live game, I could cash out a few rounds later and have the cash in hand.

I've doubled a 50 dollar buy in 3 times in a row on two different sites but lost it eventually because of either not cashing out or losing at the lower tables.
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 4:59am   #17
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Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
I pretty much agree with everything in KC's post except for the checkraise the flop part although it's still better than how you played the hand. The more I think about it the more I don't mind his line assuming your preflop call, although the correct thing to do is to fold preflop.
undefined pronoun in the bagging area. who is "his" in that sentence?

His is 'killer' here as you seem to be known these days, I meant your crai on the flop is fine

Quote:
To be honest I probably just checkcall flop and checkcall all-in on the turn most of the time and value bet the river if the turn is checked around if I have to take your preflop line.
check the stacks and pot; (i'm holding out for a) hero ('til the end of the night) starts with 30BB and puts 5 of it in pre. if we check to the raiser who cbets, other dude folds, then the raise portion of our checkraise is 17.5BB into a pot of 30BB. we get called wider than is going to bet the turn.

I play tournaments and tournament players are spewmonkeys, you're probably right in a 1/2 FR cash game

one way or another all the money goes in against AA, KX and sets, so the question is which line is best against QQ/JJ and flush draws. answer is definitely to shove; shoving here looks weaker than shoving the river in QQ/JJ's case because, apart from anything else, we have flush draws in our range. speaking of which, his missed flush draws just fold (or have filled) on the river, and we're quite happy for them to play with us at 1:1 bet odds on the flop. we can also get some cards come off to either queer our action or outdraw us vs the fluff that folds (A7x hits the ace, small pairs trip, runner runner straight/flush etc).

Fair enough, you've convinced me. Also, fold pre.

Quote:
Check-shove flop is probably the next best option, although when you get called you won't be in amazing shape.
you'll be about 40-45%. didn't you see? there was math!

Oh I agree it was +EV was just trying to figure out whether something else was more +EV considering our hero's horrible preflop call

Quote:
Calling preflop is beyond awful against a 5bb early position raise with KJ out of position. When you put one sixth of your stack in preflop you were against A6s and JJ with KJo. KJo is the worst of those three hands, you were less than 30% to win the pot 3 way which is a bad thing especially out of position.
way worse than that. the hooks are dead remember, that makes it like 24-25%.

Well yes, 24-25% is less than 30%. I probably should have been more specific but I was too lazy to get an exact number and didn't want to say 25% and have it come out to 25.2% or whatever

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It might be good at 1c/2c stakes, or maybe even 2c/5c. It is certainly not good at $1/2, you will be the worst player (not below average, I mean actually the worst) at most of the tables you sit at. You should not be playing 1/2 with a roll of less than a few thousand dollars even if you were significantly better at poker than you are.
the 1/2 regs i know all have effective bankrolls of $10k+. a $5k swing at those stakes is pretty standard.

Agreed, and therefore feudallord definitely should not be sitting at 1/2 for two reasons, a) insufficient bankroll and b) definitely not a winning player at those stakes at this moment in time

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Old Sep 10, 2013, 5:13am   #18
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Haha, that shitting part made me lol.

KC missed his calling in life to be a stand up comic

What do you guys mean by "line?"

'line' means the betting actions you take over the course of a hand. For example, I might say 'I took the following line - I raised preflop, got called, and fired three barrels for value (which means I raised preflop then bet out on the flop turn and river)

As it is, bovada closed my account last week because I'm living in NY atm, with the cash inside hah.

Well that's unfortunately, did you email them and ask if you can withdraw it if you're living outside the state in the future?

I lost my mind a bit over the weekend and spent way too much money.

You might have a gambling problem.

My next step is to try out the live games that happen in the city,

While the live games may be softer the rake is higher and the stakes played are as well, only take money you're willing to lose if you decide to try and play live

or goto an actual casino where its legal.

Probably a better idea if possible

I bought in for 50 3 times on two different sites that I'm not fond of, my addiction is pretty bad.

A gambling problem can be managed two ways - stop playing or work on improving your game so that you're a winning player, although for the latter to work you WILL need to learn patience and bankroll management, if you don't you are flushing your money down a drain playing poker, there's a reason I don't play 500/1k with Ivey and Durrrr and co and it's because while I could make a million dollars in a week if I run hot, I don't have an edge against those players and if I lose 1 buy-in my whole bankroll is gone. You're doing the same thing playing 1/2, just with a smaller bankroll than mine

Each of those times I doubled my money, one of those times I doubled the money, took the 100 to a 1/2 table, and turned a straight against AJ and doubled it immediately. Afterward I tried to do br management with a br of 200 you can safely buy in for 10, but the low stakes games no matter how hard I try I play too loose unlike how I play in higher stakes game because of impatients and wanting to win money fast.

I believe you're looking for the word impatience, not impatients. Also, you will not win money fast, or at all if you continue to take shots at games you are an underdog in. You would actually be better off setting a target in roulette betting on red/black then stopping at said target than taking shots in a poker game you are the worst player in if you're trying to win money fast because while the house edge is a few percent in roulette the 1/2 players edge over you is bigger than that. Note, don't do this either, since it is also -EV. You should not be playing house edge games ever i'm just using them to make a point. If you want to play hands out of impatience, learn to play more tables at lower stakes rather than one table at higher stakes so you don't get bored waiting and you can fold non premium hands

The other thing is that even if I double my money in these online sites I never feel like the money is accessible. I only felt that way with bovada because they paid me the following day and that seems to be the trend at the moment. If I were to double my money at a live game, I could cash out a few rounds later and have the cash in hand.

So don't play at sites like Lock where the money takes months to arrive if at all. Stick to reputable online sites with a good record of paying out quickly

I've doubled a 50 dollar buy in 3 times in a row on two different sites but lost it eventually because of either not cashing out or losing at the lower tables.

That's because you're not using proper bankroll management as well as the fact you're playing stakes higher than you can beat
.

How about this for a challenge... if you promise not to beg for money or ask me to stake you (the reason I blocked you on skype last time), i'll give you one hour's coaching for free if the next time you deposit $50, you stick to playing $1-3 tournaments and no higher than 2c/5c cash games for the first week and save/post a copy of all of your bustout or doubleup hands in both cash and tournaments so that we can analyse what you're doing wrong together.
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 6:29pm   #19
feudallord
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Deal.

It won't be until after this Friday though, which is when I'm getting paid next, and it's going to be slightly less than usual because the office was off for labor day. Not sure if its an exclusive US holiday or not. I'm only going to spend up to 100 this time no more, only because I feel like I'm going in circles getting paid then spending it all on poker. I might even wait until the end of the months pay to start playing again it depends on much I get on friday and my expenses since I put a massive dent in my bank account over the weekend lol

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Old Sep 11, 2013, 1:26am   #20
darryl
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Wow Swoop, That is really kind of you to offer that. I just hope Feudallord can actually learn bank roll management and patience.
It would be quite something to see him turn into a competent player over the course of a couple of years or so.

-d
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