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Old Jan 18, 2014, 6:58pm   #21
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by PocketJokers View Post
I disagree with everything you pretty much said.
good. the world would be a much less interesting place if everyone agreed about everything.

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Arguing with you is futile tho and ends in nothing but giving up anyway.
it would be a lot easier if only you had some evidence to present in support of your claims.

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Old Jan 18, 2014, 7:58pm   #22
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Luckily this is a poker forum and not a court of law. Even though it was pretty fun being a juror when I was unemployed for two months. I even was able to get a delinquent a nice settlement!
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Old Jan 19, 2014, 4:57am   #23
darryl
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I had to sit on a jury for 2 days because some lady and her daughter bought a Hyundai with a small engine and complained that it would rev up really high when they were trying to go fast. Well duh, that's what cars with small engines do. If they could show that the same model car that wasn't theirs didn't do that, well maybe they'd have a case. But instead their lawyer used some "expert" mechanic to say it wasn't right. Well Hyundai used their engineer who designed it as their "expert" who said it's functioning the way it's supposed to. Not surprisingly as much as we wanted to side with the little guy, they had absolutely no case.

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Old Jan 19, 2014, 6:12am   #24
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Fuck the little guy. As we have learned they are only 50% not douches
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Old Jan 23, 2014, 8:29pm   #25
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People are different and I always focused better when I don't have people ordering drinks, slot machine noises blaring, and that douche bag dealer that tells you to push the chips in because he is too short to reach them.
while that's undoubtedly true, it's not the whole story. when you go to the casino, which you only ever do when you are going to play cards, your brain will recognise this and get itself into playing cards mode. when you are sat at your computer at home, you might be playing cards, or reading celebrity gossip, or looking at porn, or sourcing a muffler for a fiat punto.

in fact, when sitting at your computer at home, your brain not only expects to be stimulated, but bombarded with stimuli. it will actively hunt for distractions, and during the second and a half between poker decisions, it will try and wander off and look up football scores or the lyrics to that song that you heard once in 1999 that have become twisted in your head so that they sound a bit like "the lima beans are burning, the lima beans are burning" over and over again or pictures of poorly anthropomorphised cats with fucking hilarious captions that are still fucking funny and fuck you.

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Plus there is no denying multi tabling and getting many many more hands in as a beginner is a great way to reduce the amount of time spent being a beginner.
i will happily deny this, and studies into how humans learn would tend to support this, as will the experience of anyone who has actually done it. you are far better off playing a small number of hands sequentially and conscientiously than you are trying to blast through as many hands as possible on the misunderstanding that doing something wrong over and over again without stopping to think about it will result in anything other than ruin.

This basically sums it up, for me personally anyway. It definitely could go both ways but when playing on the computer there's definitely way more distractions whether the player is aware of them or not. Like KC said, at a casino there's only one goal that the agent has no choice but to fixate on, because they're at a casino. It's the environment that could distract. At a casino the environment is purely gamble.

As far as my dad goes, he's not a typical father. But I'm grateful for it. To put it in perspective, I smoke bud with him. He's the one who introduced me to the game in the first place. On top of that, I've lost about 10k within the past 2.5 years, and my entire family father included is upset about it. They can't trust me with money anymore etc., so he doesn't think im "chris money maker." But poker is something I really do love, it's something I could do all day and never get bored. I could get dealt KK all fucking day over and over, but saying this garbage at work over and over makes me nauseous. That and drums. My dad thinks I am a good player, getting better, but not the best player. d. He still criticizes me for getting involved in marginal spots with marginal hands on draws, and even more so when I call down big bets to the river trying to hit even though the odds are stacked against me. One of the beauties of poker is the fact that if you wait long enough and are disciplined enough, you can put yourself in the spots where you’re statistically ahead. Like KK vs QQ for example, etc. One thing Phil hellmuth said somewhere is that an important trick is putting yourself in the right SPOTS, with less emphasis on the cards held at that particular moment. I personally admit I’m nowhere near professional level, but I want to get there, evidently with no bound on the cost at the moment. But I also have to give myself some credit because I’ve gotten better. My decisions have improved, they’re more “EV+” so to speak….And you’re right, I’ve already admitted this earlier, that one trial live is nowhere near enough to make a solid conclusion, and this is why I bitched out last week, because I want to win again obviously and I'm generally poor.. But im going for sure next week

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Old Jan 24, 2014, 3:24am   #26
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i wouldn't pay much attention to phil hellmuth. most of what comes out of his mouth is garbage. great nlhe tournament player but he's far from a font of wisdom.

two things.

firstly, i suspect that you are suffering some kind of disconnect whereby, when you sit down to play, all the things you have learnt basically go out the window. everyone experiences this to some extent, but i think it's more pronounced in you. then, after the fact, you look to rationalise what you've done. i am guessing that your decision-making process often looks something like "okay...i'm going to do this". then when you come to write it up you look for a good reason for what you did, and often end up falling back on the crutch of "mixing up my play" or similar. if i'm right, which i probably am, and even if i'm not this is still good advice, you need to heavily simplify your game. roll back to always making the basic ABC move. solid tight opening range, bet when you figure to have to best of it, get out of the way if you don't, and only draw when you're being offered good odds to do so. no tricky stuff, just simple ABC poker. crawl, walk, run, dance, fly. in that order.

secondly, you need to understand and internalise what it is that makes a player profitable. you shouldn't concern yourself with how big the stack in front of you is, or how long it is since you won a pot or played a hand. 100% of your focus is on making good decisions. the outcome does not matter. it doesn't matter what card came on the river or who won the pot, all that matters is that you made the right decision. that means that all those hands that aren't good enough to play from whatever position you are in go straight in the muck. if you're first to act, KQ is no different to 72, it's unplayable and the correct decision is to fold. it also means if you have a piece of the flop, but not enough, you just get out of the way. you have a flush draw but the pot isn't really laying you enough and you aren't really sure if the implied odds are there, you just fold. and if the flush card comes on the turn it doesn't matter, it doesn't change anything. if you'd played on the previous street you'd have been making a mistake, and regardless of this particular outcome, you'd be losing money by doing it. if the correct decision was to fold, and you made the correct decision and folded, then you got it right.

finally, in closing, which will probably still last two paragraphs, there's a lot to be said for being a fold-oriented player. i used to have a sign taped to my monitor that said "find a reason to fold". so think about whether you should even be playing the hand first, and if the answer is no, then just fold. if you decide you should be in the hand then ask if you should call or raise, and you should certainly consider the case for raising before the case for calling. that doesn't mean you should always raise, of course, but the order of consideration should be fold, then raise, and only then call.

this way of playing does mean that you are going to fold winners sometimes, and that you are going to be bluffed from time to time. that's fine. when the guy shows you a bluff just give him a "nice hand" and move on. in more years than i care to count, i've never once felt bad about a fold, but i've blown tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on calls i wish i could take back.

Kc
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Old Jan 24, 2014, 10:11pm   #27
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As usual, KC is pretty spot on and said what I was going to say only better.
I was just going to comment on the Phil Hellmuth thing. Yeah don't take what he says as solid advice. He can be entertaining, but it doesn't mean he gives out good advice.

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Old Jan 25, 2014, 3:10pm   #28
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I enjoyed reading that post.

In my opinion though I have it another way. Do I have a reason not to raise? If not then fold. If I can't fold then call. With tournaments and the blinds that is just how it has always been. With this advice I am prone to the "slow play" but that rarely happens and usually it is easy to smell a rat.

I remember reading a quote that said

"Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events and great minds discuss ideas" so let's keep this up.
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Old Jan 25, 2014, 4:57pm   #29
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in essence they are the same thing. raise or fold, and if neither then call.

the difference between being raise or fold oriented are probably more psychological than strategic. a raise oriented player wants to get in there and start throwing punches, whereas a fold oriented player is looking for his opening to attack. there's a fine line between blitzkrieg and the charge of the light brigade, it's very easy for a raise oriented player to go off the rails and spew money in all directions.

the worst thing a fold oriented player will do is miss out on a little value, but the trade off for this is vastly reduced variance, which is a fair trade for an overwhelming majority of poker players, especially novices.

if you want to discuss ideas, variance is a good choice. the variance we experience in our first few months playing poker grossly distorts our internal sense of balance. in that time you will win some pots and lose some pots, win some sessions and lose some sessions, and however your luck breaks over that period, you will internalise this as being an average deal. if you run bad in your early days, there's a good chance you're going to go read a book or watch a movie the next time you have leisure time and poker is probably something you'll just do with friends every now and again and such people aren't our concern.

if you run good, on the other hand, you're setting yourself up for years of torment. say you ran one standard deviation above the mean, which happens about 15% of the time. your perception of normal is horribly maladjusted. 85% of the time you are going to feel like you're getting a bad deal. 35% of the time you will be getting an above average deal but feel like it's a bad deal, 50% of the time you're going to be getting a bad deal and will feel like god hates you, and 15% of the time you will be running pretty good and feel like the deck is breaking even. you need to run probably 2 standard deviations above the mean (which happens 2% of the time) to actually feel like luck is on your side for once.

it also doesn't help that most variance is hidden. over the course of a session you will probably be aware of how many big pairs you got dealt or how many of your draws got there, but you can't track the overall quality of your hand or how often and how well it connects with the flop, and you certainly can't track these variables for your opponents, which contributes just as much to the quality of an individual spot as your own cards do. that is to say, your initial perception of variance is distorted by incomplete and untrackable information, and it is your dollar results (which are themselves a gross exaggeration of variance) that then colours your future perception of variance (and again, the variance you are actually perceiving is dollar results, not probability outcomes).

this is a pretty depressing state of affairs, and it's extremely hard to break yourself out of this delusion, even with the help of databases and their thousands of generated stats you don't really understand. in my opinion, and this brings us back to my previous post, the only mindset that is remotely conducive to a happy life is to abandon all attachment to variance, luck and results and concentrate exclusively on what can be controlled; your decisions.

short of a sudden parting of the clouds beam of sunlight localised entirely around you booming voice from the heavens style epiphany, the only mechanism for achieving this that is available to us is constant unrelenting reinforcement. every hand you play must be postmortemed objectively, which in turn means you must abandon all concern for your ego. in fact, you should go beyond objectivity and actively grill yourself probing for mistakes. when you play, you have to play like the numbers on the chips are just numbers. this cannot be done if you are playing for an amount of money that is genuinely significant to you. never bet what you can't afford to lose, not because of the disaster that might happen if you do lose, but because of the disaster that will happen if you play. we pause to note the irony in gambling chips having been invented to detach players from the concept of money so that they would lose more freely, and that in poker that built-in detachment actually aids the player.

i have more, unsurprisingly, but my dinner is ready and i'm hungry.

Kc
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 8:44pm   #30
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Variance is a good thing to talk about especially with our buddy feudalord here and his winning session playing live.

If online poker ever comes back to new York state I will be back as well. I play live in casinos and home games at least three times a month. With such a small amount of time playing nowadays variance is pronounced more than ever. This 15 week long poker series I play in is actually a decent indication of my skill level. I have won four tournements . placed second in one and the rest I have finished in the fifth to fifteenth range out of an average of twenty people a tourney. I would consider me the first or second best player in this league. But I am only like sixth overall in "points" what the field doesn't understand is that only first and second win money. Twentieth and third both get nothing. Taking chances and bluffing when the blinds are large are a near nescesity to win money. Yet I always see people folding to the blinds.

Variance has been pretty steady in this setting with a small sample size.

Now when better competition is confronted at the casino cash game, I tend to tighten up a bit as 1 it is a cash with fixed blinds And 2 the competition is much better. Here I am trying my best not to blow the money I came in with right away and spend some time so I don't go back to my friends or wife too soon. I realize that this is beyond horrible. Each bet is a situation that should be made independent of all of what I just mentioned. The table mood, my cards, my opponents actions are what matter. Not my perceived night out bullshit. This is a hole in my game and I have been doing my best to tackle it. The variance has been in the 50% range which has been what I have accepted as a slightly average winning player. Recently the last 10 sessions or so I have been taking it one decision at a time and had had better decisions but the results have been worse. I know this is variance. I am playing better but losing. Fuck. This is what novices need to know and battle though if they want to improve. One of my more proud sessions at Niagara last week had me losing three buy ins. The variance has been a bitch but I have only gotten better.

The two games are unrelated and related in different ways. One on paar and one to the extreme with variance. When fuedalord goes to the casino again next time he needs to understand what is going on and think decisions and not results. Hopefully his results are better than mine though.

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